Comments on: The marks of false ‘christian’ teaching and teachers Part 5 - The Prosperity Gospel http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/ And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32) Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:22:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: Freebird http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-1071 Freebird Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:55:23 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-1071 This is in response to who those who give as proof of the legitimacy of the WOF movement the good works that some or all of their ministries are doing. Matthew 7:21-23 states that not everyone that says "Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom...They will say, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and cast out devils, and done many wonderful works? Jesus replied, "...I will profess to them that I never knew them; depart from me all you that work iniquity. The thing about apostasy is that it is a mixture, and while these ministries can and do good works, at the same time they are teaching false doctrines. "Good works" won't be a good enough excuse when they have to give an account to God for misleading his people. This is in response to who those who give as proof of the legitimacy of the WOF movement the good works that some or all of their ministries are doing. Matthew 7:21-23 states that not everyone that says “Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom…They will say, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and cast out devils, and done many wonderful works? Jesus replied, “…I will profess to them that I never knew them; depart from me all you that work iniquity.

The thing about apostasy is that it is a mixture, and while these ministries can and do good works, at the same time they are teaching false doctrines. “Good works” won’t be a good enough excuse when they have to give an account to God for misleading his people.

]]> By: esther http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-1061 esther Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:39:18 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-1061 I would like to know how much Bro Nelson spend on widows on orphans. I would like to know how much Bro Nelson spend on widows on orphans.

]]> By: Alan Higgins http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-661 Alan Higgins Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:07:04 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-661 I agree with what you said about the meanings in strongs but again John it is not using this as a doctrine for prosperity. Of course all scripture is inspired but we must be careful that we do not make a doctrine out of a verse that is not suppose to be. Hence the reason I gave a paraphrase. Maybe a better thing would be for me to say that our modern day equivalent would be something along the line of 'I hope all is well with you' Josh 1:8 is a principle but should not be used as a text alone to say that God wants us rich. If that is the case, then you cant just stop at verse 8 but you have to include the surrounding verses. For example could we make a doctrine to say that we could "pass through the host, and command the people, saying, Prepare you victuals; for within three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, to go in to possess the land, which the LORD your God giveth you to possess it. (verse 11)" No because it was written to a certain people at a certain time. We cannot just pluck verses out to suit our means Now let me make my self clear in case you misunderstand me. I am NOT saying that being poor is a sign of being being more godly in the same way that I am not saying that being rich is a sign of being more godly either. If you read Paul's testimony above in 2 Corinthians 11:22-33, by todays standard (or a lot of these preachers standards), we would not say that he was prosperous I hear what you say about abundance not for ourselves etc and I do not disagree with you. What I disagree with is the imbalance that i hear about material wealth. For every one word that a lot of these preachers say when they say "the wealth is to establish his kingdom', I hear another 5 words talking about us sowing seeds to receive cars, houses, wives etc What we should expect as believers is to suffer for his name sake even if we dont receive any money. This same message could not be preached to those who are being persecuted severly for their faith. I would advise that you do some reading on the persecuted church and hear from those who have had hot oil poured on their feet, for example. It would be a insult to preach to them material gain I agree with what you said about the meanings in strongs but again John it is not using this as a doctrine for prosperity. Of course all scripture is inspired but we must be careful that we do not make a doctrine out of a verse that is not suppose to be. Hence the reason I gave a paraphrase. Maybe a better thing would be for me to say that our modern day equivalent would be something along the line of ‘I hope all is well with you’

Josh 1:8 is a principle but should not be used as a text alone to say that God wants us rich. If that is the case, then you cant just stop at verse 8 but you have to include the surrounding verses. For example could we make a doctrine to say that we could “pass through the host, and command the people, saying, Prepare you victuals; for within three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, to go in to possess the land, which the LORD your God giveth you to possess it. (verse 11)” No because it was written to a certain people at a certain time. We cannot just pluck verses out to suit our means

Now let me make my self clear in case you misunderstand me. I am NOT saying that being poor is a sign of being being more godly in the same way that I am not saying that being rich is a sign of being more godly either.

If you read Paul’s testimony above in 2 Corinthians 11:22-33, by todays standard (or a lot of these preachers standards), we would not say that he was prosperous

I hear what you say about abundance not for ourselves etc and I do not disagree with you. What I disagree with is the imbalance that i hear about material wealth. For every one word that a lot of these preachers say when they say “the wealth is to establish his kingdom’, I hear another 5 words talking about us sowing seeds to receive cars, houses, wives etc

What we should expect as believers is to suffer for his name sake even if we dont receive any money. This same message could not be preached to those who are being persecuted severly for their faith. I would advise that you do some reading on the persecuted church and hear from those who have had hot oil poured on their feet, for example. It would be a insult to preach to them material gain

]]> By: angiemama http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-656 angiemama Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:46:59 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-656 Hi, Thanks for your responses. Re: 3 John 1:2, I understand the context it is in, however I don't like to make a habit of 'paraphrasing' scripture. I do believe that all scripture is profitable, and is inspired by God (3 Titus 3:16). The words 'prosper' there is euodoō which means according to Strong's: From a compound of G2095 and G3598; to help on the road, that is, (passively) succeed in reaching; figuratively to succeed in business affairs: - (have a) prosper (-ous journey). That is not the only scripture that speaks of 'prosperity' as such... (BTW we don't see it as what you call 'the prosperity gospel', but the Gospel (or "Good News", Word of God etc). I love Joshua 1:8-9 8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. 9Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest. It's funny how people will say that verses like that only apply to the Law, or only to Joshua... however if they understood the bible and its doctrines, then they could personalise the Word of God and it wouldn't just be a book written about the people of 'bible times'. Anyway, I don't know if you read the part I wrote in the previous post: "Also, the abundant life we received in Christ Jesus (which encompasses prosperity in all its forms) is not to glorify our own selves, but to be used to give in a greater measure to further the Kingdom of God" and "Definitely we shouldn’t be heaping up treasures for ourselves to keep and experience, and we can’t take it with us, and we shouldn’t let the love of money ever surpass our love and obedience to God." And that's why we're caused to prosper... not for our own luxury and for us to 'heap it up', but for furthering the Kingdom and to help other's.... to GIVE! :-) As I said before, people don't like messages on prosperity as it makes them feel like they are not being religious enough... that God sees them as a lowly worm, or even that God wishes them to be poor to teach them humility or to stop them from being distracted from Him. Some believe that God chooses some to be rich and some to be poor (or 'favouritism'). Whatever the reason, they have a right to their beliefs... although my belief is that He wants to bless us. Poverty or lack is not from God, only every good thing is from Him (James 1:17), and we should acknowledge the good things in us... including the abundant and prosperous life we have in Christ Jesus. Prosperity as part of your inheritance in Jesus is not heresy, just the truth to those that have received that progressive revelation. I await your reply (with no disrespect intended), and hopefully we can continue this discussion further... I enjoy reading all these different posts and comments. God bless you all :-) Angie Hi,
Thanks for your responses. Re: 3 John 1:2, I understand the context it is in, however I don’t like to make a habit of ‘paraphrasing’ scripture. I do believe that all scripture is profitable, and is inspired by God (3 Titus 3:16). The words ‘prosper’ there is euodoō which means according to Strong’s:
From a compound of G2095 and G3598; to help on the road, that is, (passively) succeed in reaching; figuratively to succeed in business affairs: - (have a) prosper (-ous journey).

That is not the only scripture that speaks of ‘prosperity’ as such… (BTW we don’t see it as what you call ‘the prosperity gospel’, but the Gospel (or “Good News”, Word of God etc).

I love Joshua 1:8-9

8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

9Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

It’s funny how people will say that verses like that only apply to the Law, or only to Joshua… however if they understood the bible and its doctrines, then they could personalise the Word of God and it wouldn’t just be a book written about the people of ‘bible times’.

Anyway, I don’t know if you read the part I wrote in the previous post:
“Also, the abundant life we received in Christ Jesus (which encompasses prosperity in all its forms) is not to glorify our own selves, but to be used to give in a greater measure to further the Kingdom of God”

and

“Definitely we shouldn’t be heaping up treasures for ourselves to keep and experience, and we can’t take it with us, and we shouldn’t let the love of money ever surpass our love and obedience to God.”

And that’s why we’re caused to prosper… not for our own luxury and for us to ‘heap it up’, but for furthering the Kingdom and to help other’s…. to GIVE! :-) As I said before, people don’t like messages on prosperity as it makes them feel like they are not being religious enough… that God sees them as a lowly worm, or even that God wishes them to be poor to teach them humility or to stop them from being distracted from Him. Some believe that God chooses some to be rich and some to be poor (or ‘favouritism’). Whatever the reason, they have a right to their beliefs… although my belief is that He wants to bless us. Poverty or lack is not from God, only every good thing is from Him (James 1:17), and we should acknowledge the good things in us… including the abundant and prosperous life we have in Christ Jesus.

Prosperity as part of your inheritance in Jesus is not heresy, just the truth to those that have received that progressive revelation.

I await your reply (with no disrespect intended), and hopefully we can continue this discussion further… I enjoy reading all these different posts and comments.

God bless you all :-)
Angie

]]> By: Alan Higgins http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-653 Alan Higgins Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:34:45 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-653 I agree anointedvessel. Good quote Also Angie, I would challenge you to look at the christian who is spoken about the most i.e. Paul, and show me ANYWHERE, where he elevates material prosperity I agree anointedvessel. Good quote

Also Angie, I would challenge you to look at the christian who is spoken about the most i.e. Paul, and show me ANYWHERE, where he elevates material prosperity

]]> By: anointedvessel http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-650 anointedvessel Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:34:30 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-650 Hey Alan I have one question to all who subscribe to the "Prosperity Doctrine"..... "Have you ever seen a U-Haul behind a hearse?" If you don't have U-Haul's in the UK they are moving vans for all of your "stuff". This is a quote, the source is a mystery but my father told it to me when I was going through my materialism phase. He told me, nothing that I got was going with me and he was right, we won't even take the clothes on our backs. Here is a quote from Revered Kimberly Drieman that sums it up Perfectly: "Sadly, many people spend their lives buying items that will someday be tossed by someone who is cleaning up after their death. Time is another thing that is wasted-many people try to build wealth and many times do not live to enjoy it. Matthew 6:19-21 “Do not store up for yourselves treasure on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Matthew 6:24 “No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” (Quote from Rev. Kimberly Dreiman ) Hey Alan I have one question to all who subscribe to the “Prosperity Doctrine”….. “Have you ever seen a U-Haul behind a hearse?” If you don’t have U-Haul’s in the UK they are moving vans for all of your “stuff”. This is a quote, the source is a mystery but my father told it to me when I was going through my materialism phase. He told me, nothing that I got was going with me and he was right, we won’t even take the clothes on our backs. Here is a quote from Revered Kimberly Drieman that sums it up Perfectly:

“Sadly, many people spend their lives buying items that will someday be tossed by someone who is cleaning up after their death. Time is another thing that is wasted-many people try to build wealth and many times do not live to enjoy it. Matthew 6:19-21 “Do not store up for yourselves treasure on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Matthew 6:24 “No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
(Quote from Rev. Kimberly Dreiman )

]]> By: Alan Higgins http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-648 Alan Higgins Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:09:17 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-648 Thanks for visiting my blog Angie. In regards to 3 John 1:2 you have made the mistake that many of these prosperity preachers use to validate their heresy and it is a twisting of scripture. 3 John 1:2 is not a doctrine from John validating the prosperity gospel but is a greeting. (Please study this for yourself if you do not think I am telling you the truth). Our modern paraphrase would be something like 'I hope everything is well with you' If you go to my link 'The Persecuted church' on the side and see what our Christian brothers and sisters are going through, could the same messages that we hear be preached to them? Also I hear all the time that prosperity is not limited to our finances but whenever I listen to a lot of these teachers on a random basis, they sure do go on about finances and other material stuff. Now I am not saying that we are more spiritual if we are poor but the prosperity preachers put a lot of emphasis on material things. The same thing that the bible admonishes us not to set our hearts upon Thanks for visiting my blog Angie.

In regards to 3 John 1:2 you have made the mistake that many of these prosperity preachers use to validate their heresy and it is a twisting of scripture. 3 John 1:2 is not a doctrine from John validating the prosperity gospel but is a greeting. (Please study this for yourself if you do not think I am telling you the truth). Our modern paraphrase would be something like ‘I hope everything is well with you’

If you go to my link ‘The Persecuted church’ on the side and see what our Christian brothers and sisters are going through, could the same messages that we hear be preached to them?

Also I hear all the time that prosperity is not limited to our finances but whenever I listen to a lot of these teachers on a random basis, they sure do go on about finances and other material stuff. Now I am not saying that we are more spiritual if we are poor but the prosperity preachers put a lot of emphasis on material things. The same thing that the bible admonishes us not to set our hearts upon

]]> By: angiemama http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-645 angiemama Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:43:18 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-645 Hi, interesting post :-) I do not agree with all you wrote, because there a few things I feel you missed out. I belong to what you may term a ministry that preaches the 'prosperity gospel'. However, I see prosperity as one of the many things that are encompassed in God's provision (and not the only thing). We're supposed to be in health and prosper, even as our soul prospers (3 John 1:2). Prosperity is not limited to finances. Also, the abundant life we received in Christ Jesus (which encompasses prosperity in all its forms) is not to glorify our own selves, but to be used to give in a greater measure to further the Kingdom of God. Many religious folk don't like any teachings on prosperity, and thats their choice. The vatican even announced that 'obscene wealth' was now a 'modern mortal sin' (I am not sure of the exact name that was given so please correct me if I am wrong). Definitely we shouldn't be heaping up treasures for ourselves to keep and experience, and we can't take it with us, and we shouldn't let the love of money ever surpass our love and obedience to God. However I don't feel it is unscriptural to teach prosperity as part of the abundant life (inheritance) in Christ Jesus. Take care, God bless you mightily, Angie Hi, interesting post :-)

I do not agree with all you wrote, because there a few things I feel you missed out. I belong to what you may term a ministry that preaches the ‘prosperity gospel’. However, I see prosperity as one of the many things that are encompassed in God’s provision (and not the only thing). We’re supposed to be in health and prosper, even as our soul prospers (3 John 1:2).

Prosperity is not limited to finances.

Also, the abundant life we received in Christ Jesus (which encompasses prosperity in all its forms) is not to glorify our own selves, but to be used to give in a greater measure to further the Kingdom of God. Many religious folk don’t like any teachings on prosperity, and thats their choice. The vatican even announced that ‘obscene wealth’ was now a ‘modern mortal sin’ (I am not sure of the exact name that was given so please correct me if I am wrong). Definitely we shouldn’t be heaping up treasures for ourselves to keep and experience, and we can’t take it with us, and we shouldn’t let the love of money ever surpass our love and obedience to God.

However I don’t feel it is unscriptural to teach prosperity as part of the abundant life (inheritance) in Christ Jesus.

Take care, God bless you mightily,
Angie

]]> By: Alan Higgins http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-613 Alan Higgins Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:27:28 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-613 Nelson, I did the same thing. I remember after a job interview confessing down the road like an idiot "The job is mine, the job is mine". Only to find out that the job wasnt mine so you can imagine how upset I was with God Nelson, I did the same thing. I remember after a job interview confessing down the road like an idiot “The job is mine, the job is mine”. Only to find out that the job wasnt mine so you can imagine how upset I was with God

]]> By: Nelson http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-610 Nelson Fri, 04 Apr 2008 03:23:14 +0000 http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/the-marks-of-false-%e2%80%98christian%e2%80%99-teaching-and-teachers-part-5-the-prosperity-gospel/#comment-610 By the way, I used to live and confess like the first paragraph. My wife still does. She left me when my business was not making enough money. My savings were gone and I had to get a job. She bounced checks, borrowed money I didn't know about and because she does a good job at "church" helping the pastor she still gets to be called pastor Amy. Did I mention she was still giving more than we had so she would get her blessings....... figure it out yet. It is called brainwashing !!!!!!! Thank God I am free from the false teachings of men. May God help them all. By the way, I used to live and confess like the first paragraph. My wife still does. She left me when my business was not making enough money. My savings were gone and I had to get a job. She bounced checks, borrowed money I didn’t know about and because she does a good job at “church” helping the pastor she still gets to be called pastor Amy. Did I mention she was still giving more than we had so she would get her blessings……. figure it out yet.
It is called brainwashing !!!!!!!

Thank God I am free from the false teachings of men. May God help them all.

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