I will readily admit that I have always been a pre-tribulationist but then I saw the video below on the Independent Conservative and it gave me food for thought. It is 24 mins in length but you NEED to watch all of it

Vodpod videos no longer available.

The thing is they have used the scripture to put across their view and on first glance it looks like they have rightly divided the word. Admittedly I have to study this a bit further for myself but could it be that a lot of us could be wrong to think that the rapture will come before the tribulation?

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Comments
  1. Isaiah says:

    That’s an interesting video; saw it quite some time ago. Thank you for putting it up.

    I’m a post-tribulationist. 🙂

  2. lavrai says:

    Pre-trib. Post-trib. Mid-trib. Already-trib! Geez… what a wedge it is. I wish we could all just remember that we are to be ready every minute of every day because the date of Christ Jesus’ return isn’t coded somewhere in the Holy Bible.

    My father and my stepmother and my mother believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. Honestly, I can’t prove anything to anyone about this 100%, but why should we relax and think that we’re all good to go? That’s what I ask them… at least pretend that there’s a slight possibility that this is how the Church will be tested and purified.

    I mean, woe to the women with children at this time… are we to think babies in the womb — who are quite innocent — are gonna get ‘caught up’ and their sinful mothers get ‘left behind?’

    Anyway, try reading Matthew 24…and pay close attention to the ‘sequence’ of events Christ Jesus describes to HIS disciples.

    Peace,
    http://lavrai.com/blogs/2008/03/31/no-one-knows-the-day-or-hour-of-christ-jesus-return/

    • Ron says:

      What a wedge Indeed! The devil has many people sidelined on this subject. Get back in the game! Redeem the time, Fill your oil jugs—-AND BE THE 5 THAT GO IN! Agape,Ron.

  3. Isaiah says:

    I mean, woe to the women with children at this time… are we to think babies in the womb — who are quite innocent — are gonna get ‘caught up’ and their sinful mothers get ‘left behind?’

    That’s an interesting thought there.

  4. Alan Higgins says:

    I just wanna be ready, no matter when he comes but I still wanna get a grasp biblically on this subject

  5. Douglas K. Adu-Boahen says:

    I’m a pre-wrath rapturist myself, and like I said to IC, I see a lot of truth in all 3 three systems. I don’t see it as an issue related to one’s salvation but I do see as something people should be tooled up about

  6. I am stealing this video bro!! Love your site. I have been wrestling with the typical dispensational pre-trib rapture guys for a while. It just don’t add up man. God bless

  7. I am a pre-wrath! I used to be a pre-trib until about a year or so ago, when the Lord took me to His Word, and made me stop just accepting what everyone was saying. When you really look at the whole of scripture is amazing what the Lord can teach you. We were not appointed for wrath, but we will go through tribulations!

    At His Feet,

    Stephanie

  8. What the? You crazy Americans

  9. Douglas K. Adu-Boahen says:

    Stephanie,

    The pre-wrath position is gathering storm among quite a lot of Reformed guys I hang about with. I don’t believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water when it comes to eschatology

  10. Alan Higgins says:

    When you say a pre-wrath rapturist, do you mean raptured before the tribulation? Pardon my ignorance

  11. alabasterboxes says:

    There are so many scriptures you would have to look at, but I mean after the 6th seal. As you study you will notice, no one even recognizes that the Day of the Lord is here until after the 6th seal. John seems to stop right in the middle of his speaking to tell us that now he sees a multitude before the throne, which no one can count and the sealing of the 144,000, which we know, no harm can come to. These 2 groups are not appointed unto wrath. If you were to study the feasts of the Lord from Jewish culture, if you were to study the 6th seal in regards to Matthew and the other signs of the Day of the Lord, they begin to line up quite perfectly. Also I always had a hard time even when I was a pre-trib with Paul saying that Day would not come unless the apostasy occures AND the man of lawlessnes was revealed. Remember he was talking to believers there. We are truly in the apostasy and it is full blown among us. But my study now has led me to conclude that we will be a part of the first 6 seals, known as a time of tribulation.

  12. Isaiah says:

    I too would like to know what pre-wrath is.

  13. guy says:

    This is another example of video makers that don’t understand the that the church will not suffer the wrath of God. The wrath of man yes but not the cups of wrath revealed in beginning in Revelation chapter 4. Its termed the blessed hope to escape these judgments of an angry God. Read Revelation 1thur 3 then follow the church from that point on beginning in Chapter 4. Ask yourself where is the church at that point on?

  14. guy says:

    @12:30 he says “and they shall gather together Gods elect from the four winds and so shall we ever be with the lord”

    this is just a evil man with no regard for the truth, its been said you can make the bible say anything and using this method of pick a verse and pair it, pull it , stretch it and you got jumbo gumbo and its poison.

  15. guy says:

    The silent rapture is a Strawman argument. Silence isn’t the belief its secret in that its not seen by those who don’t have eyes to see, its to His church. Just as today you can preach but some don’t have ears to hear because of the hardness of their hearts. When Jesus comes back to put down the battle of Armageddon and rule from Jerusalem as the Son Of David that’s not the the same as described in 1 Thess 4:16. Pre-trib is being caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall “we” ever be with the Lord. In his second coming “we” will be with him

  16. Koeby says:

    How do post-trib people explain.–

    1 Thes 1:9-10
    Romans 5:9
    1 Thes 4:13-5:11
    2 Thes 2:1-12
    Rev 3:7-22

    These suggest Pre-trib

  17. SoD says:

    In all that we believe, remember Rapture and the Quickening are different goals for Planet Evacuation in this era of increasing predestined trouble.

    A hidden truth of Rapture found in 1st Thessalonians verse 16 & 17, tells how a specific Upper Regional Satellite & Relay Host referred to as ‘Lord God’, will be visibly seen at the same time as a smaller Satellite Relay Host. This Foremost and most powerful Relay Host will be positioned just below their alignment’s Parenting Mother Sphere, and is in their own Enclosed Area of Open Space referred to as a ‘Heaven’. It will be this Foremost Relay Host which will sound off of a specific group of frequency tones which opens a linking portal passage.

    This spiraling portal tunnel will extend down through space and time, leading to a second in place yet smaller Regional Satellite Host referred to as a Lord Host. This second in Place Relay Host is the Central Power Source to that Tribal Colony which inhibits their own smaller Enclosed Area of Open Space referred to as a ‘Heaven’.

    This portal passage will then reach all the way down unto an opening wormhole which will be seen from this planet.

    But not only will a people of Faith from the surface of this planet be taken aboard city size Mobile Crafts, and the coming fleet of 144,000 in rapture at this time, but the next verse tells how they will be taken up together with those celestial colonies in wait, which are concealed in transparent heavens of enclosed areas of space which float as a glass bubble in Earth’s upper skies. All spoken of here will be taken to meet this Celestial Lord Host and His accompanied Star Fleet, in that open atmosphere of His Heaven. Image that many such heavens of enclosed areas of space are established of worlds similar to what is known as the Jetsons TV show; and imagine many others to be established as enclosed Flat Land Islands of ever flourishing rain forests, which were referred to as Gardens of Eden.

    Because of this completed Truth, Earthen Humanity must grow past those childish thoughts of bird wings on the back of flying angels coming to gather them for rapture. We should now heed visual perceptions of Winged Crafts of Star Ships in their design of Superior Technology, which many of Angels in ancient scriptures actually were.

    1st Thessalonians verse 16 & 17 as it reads in scriptures of metaphor;
    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.

    Using correct translation of specific Words, it has been allowed me to interpret this scripture as so;

    For the Regional Governing Satellite Power Source Himself, shall descend from an upper open area of an enclosed pocket of space at the same time as a loud atmospheric noise, at the same time as the vibration of a composed arrangement of frequencies sounding off of the First Regional Satellite Cherub Host, and at the same time as the highest held portal opening frequency tuner of A Head Governing Power Source.

    Be safe, be well, beware
    evelynseedofdavid@gmail.com
    281-440-1918 …. 15806 Winding Moss-B …. Houston Texas 77068

  18. Matt says:

    For a definition of pre-wrath, go to Rev. 11:15-18. The angel says at the seventh trumpet that the wrath of God has come, speaking present tense.

    Everything that happens before the seventh trumpet is pre-wrath.

    Rev. 14:6-7, the Gospel reaches the whole world.

    Meets Jesus’s criteria that the gospel be preached in the whole world.

    Rev. 14:7 HOUR of judgement has come, but the people still have a choice to turn to God. It’s a test.

    Meets criteria of the promise to be spared HOUR of trial to temp the whole world in Rev. 3.

    Rev. 14:9 Mark of the beast has been implemented.

    Meets pauls critera of the day wouldn’t come unless the man of sin is reveiled.

    Rev. 14:16 The earth is reaped. This is the Rapture.

    All of this at the seventh trumpet in Revelation, the LAST trumpet in the bible, the GREATest of the seven trumpets, and the TRUMPET where the kingdom OF GOD is proclaimed.

    All references outside the book of Revelation to the rapture give it’s time. Jesus said with the sound of a great trumpet, paul said with the last trumpet and the trumpet of God. The only trumpet that fits is the 7th trumpet.

    Jesus says that his return will be like a thief in the night, but this applies to those who aren’t watching for it. He tells us to watch so that it DOESN’T overtake us as a thief in the night. The day or hour can not be pinpointed, but the rapture can be located in a sequence of events.

    Even Jesus said (in luke) When you see these things begin to take place, Look up and lift your heads, your redemption draweth nigh.

    How are we supposed to see these things take place if we aren’t here?

    Why did Jesus mention what we call the rapture AFTER the Beginning of sorrows and persecution?

    Why did Jesus spend so much time warning us of the persecution to come and how to act during it if we weren’t going to be here?

    I agree with this video, but only because I have devoted hours of study into this same question and came up with the EXACT same conclusion BEFORE watching it. ALL of the scripture points toward the rapture, even the scripture pre-tribbers use to support their claims, happening at the 7th trumpet.

    Lastly, this subject should not divide any two christians on any level. The fact is, either way, Jesus is coming to get us. We have to continue shining our light with love until he gets here

  19. Alan Higgins says:

    Amen to ‘this subject should not divide any two christians on any level’. Either way, we need to preach the gospel

  20. Mark says:

    Here is how I see it happening. The new moon will be spotted on Wednesday October 1st in Israel, making it Tuesday afternoon in America. THis is when the midnight cry will go out, and the Rapture of the Church will occur at this time, September 30th, on Tuesday, in America.
    The way I come up with this, is the compelling Blood Red Moon Scenario that occurs in 2014 and 2015, exactly on solemn feast days. This does not occur again for another 500 years I believe…. And with the way things are in the world right now as I type this, I completely feel confident that this is really it this time. The last time I thought that the rapture was coming, was in 2000. But do yourselves a favor, go read Psalms 108 (2008) and pay close attention to verse 6
    Then go read Psalms 109 (2009) and read verse 6.
    The church is gone in Psalms 109, and it talks about the Antichrist. Folks, we are gone outta here in 2008, and next week is the week. Tuesday, look out, or look up. He`s coming

  21. Laura says:

    Mark

    Jesus said nobody will know the date.

  22. Laura says:

    With regard to this subject, which I admit I do not have that much spiritual knowledge of, I have always kind of thought that the ‘rapture’ would not be a physical one but the time when God would ‘seal our souls’ so that no matter what the World or the devil could throw at us, we would never be led off course.

    I have always thought it was protection from spiritual harm rather than physical harm…? Although I agree that i don’t think God would let us suffer his final wrath upon the Earth so I’m a bit stuck. I guess if I had to pick a view point it would be pre-wrath. I think we will be around during the tribulation which seems as if it’s possibly already started.

    I’m sure though that God will protect us from His wrath, but not that of man – a lot of true Christians will and already have suffered at the hands of men.

  23. V742 says:

    Remember, Jesus Christ paid for ALL of our sins on the cross at Calvary. The post-trib view seems almost sadistic, as if people want to go through pain.

    If everyone had to go through Tribulation, then all the people that died before would have to be brought back from the dead and live with everyone to prove their purity. The chance of Satan apologizing to God is greater than that!!

    And Mark, Laura’s right. To come at an UNKNOWN time MEANS and UNKNOWN time.

  24. dee says:

    Have any of you ever considered that maybe the rapture is going to take place in the 7th seal? Me and my husband have been doing research on this lately. If you read about the 7th seal you will see that there is silence in heaven for 1/2 hour. Any other time John speaks of heaven the beasts and 24 elders are worshipping around the throne.
    Revelation 4:8 says “they rest not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come”. We think that in Ch. 8:1 where it says there is silence in heaven is when Jesus is gone from the throne, to the clouds to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Just something to think about

  25. Jake says:

    I must say that I have been looking at three sides to the rapture. I was raised pre-trib, but have begun to questin some of those teachings. My only concern is should I get ready in the physical? I have a large family. (6 kids) I know that we shouldn’t worry because we are in His hands, but does that mean I should’nt take measures to try and keep my family safe? The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, however, this blessed nation was founded because God fearing men took up arms.

  26. based on Marks comment, I guess I missed it.

  27. Susan says:

    For all post tribbers go to this site: Gracethrufaith.com
    and you can get all the explanation you need to see why I believe in a pre trib rapture. Jack Kelley who writes this site also takes any question concerning the Bible you want to ask and he will answer your email and also publish it on his site.
    I don’t think I’m aware of another person who knows more about the Bible and Bible prophecy then this man.

  28. Chris says:

    Luke 21:36 (King James Version)

    36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Emphasis….ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS

    Hello people

  29. Alastor says:

    What I’ve been hearing alot lately is a bunch of hype surrounding this mysterious planet nibiu or planet x. The Religious groups says it may the Wormwood of the Bible, New Age Gurus, says the Gods reside in the planets surrounding this star. This thing is on approach accoding to some, to complete its 3600 year orbit around the sun. Its passing is supposed to cause major amage to this planet ergo armagedon or so they say. Like I said, there’s lots of talk about this planet. I wanted to know wht you all thought.

    Alastor

  30. Alan Higgins says:

    I have not heard about this Alastor so cannot comment apart from its not in the bible so reject it

  31. Alastor says:

    Alan,

    In all my readings, I have discovered more similarites and revelations than by just reading the Bible. Keep in mind, the Bible itself is a compliation af may books and scriptures. The answer rarely is in just one soucre, but many. If you have an open mind, read this passage about the 2nd comming of Christ and His plans to expand humanity beyond the stars:

    http://www.be-ready.org/babel.html

    the author seems to be a learned Christian and offers a practical approach to the rapture and Human ascention.

    Enjoy

    Alastor

  32. Parker says:

    Hey guys it will be a pre-rapture let me tell you how, its says that no man knows the day or hour, well in revelations it says when you see the the antichrist proclaiming himself to be god in the temple, it says that there will be 1260 days left till jesus return so dont believe everything you here and also that scripture that says that he will descend from hevean with a shout, well if you look at it when jesus returns he will be coming to set up his 1000 year kindgom here on earth, now there is only to comings right well he doesnt come to the earth he comes to the clouds so that proves that there will be a pre rapture. so be ready and wait for our lord jesus christ cause he is coming soon

  33. Jennifer says:

    God warns of FALSE PROPHETS AND DECEPTION RIGHT BEFORE HE COMES FOR US, IT SEEMS THAT YOU ALL ARE FALLING RIGHT INTO THIS TRAP. THE RAPTURE IS A REWARD FOR THOSE WHO ARE SAVED AND BAPTISED AND OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS. THE PURPOSE OF THE TRIBULATION IS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TURNED THEIR BACKS ON GOD. IT’S REALLY THAT SIMPLE, DON’T THINK INTO IT TOO MUCH? IF YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR GOD WHEN HE DECIDES TO COME FOR US, YOU WILL STAY BEHIND. THE BIBLE TELLS US THIS. GOD IS ON THE VERGE OF RAPTURING US ASAP, PLEASE DON’T MISS THE FLIGHT, KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS ON HIM, NOT WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING? I PRAY THAT GOD WILL RIGHT NOW OPEN YOUR EYES AND FILL YOU WITH HIS WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE TO SEE THESE FALSE PROPHETS. THERE IS ONLY ONE RAPTURE!!!!!

  34. Pitney says:

    I get the feeling that you think typing your conviction about this matter in upper case somehow validates it and makes it irrefutable.

    1. Yes, God warns us against false prophets. By hold fast to this we will not be taken captive by any hollow or deceptive philosophy regardless of who says it or when the rapture occurs.

    2. The purpose of the Tribulation may be for those who have turned their backs on God, but if there aren’t any Christians to point the lost to the truth found in the Bible (Because God knows none of them will want to pick one up themselves) I don’t think there is much of a purpose in trying them for seven years… might as well ship them all to hell in one go.

    3. Some scriptural support for your arguments would be nice.

    Sidenote: I don’t really care when it will take place. I would like a pre-tribulation rapture but recently the evidence I’m digging up seems to push me into the mid-trib or pre-wrath side of the fence.

  35. when JESUS comes (2nd coming) and people try to stop him, they will be raptured. we are in the great tribulation now. i hope i will see and experience the 2nd coming. we need HIM much.

  36. Tyler! says:

    i have not watched this whole video because i believe it to be crap. there is one rapture not three. jesus comes back to save the people who followed him before the seven year ugly horrible tribulation of the people who did NOT follow him. i come into agreement witrh jennifer and i pray that you guys will open your eyes to the crap these false prophets are feeding you. Its fear! we are not supposed to be afraid of the rapture, when it comes if you are saved and are truly in love with God then you will be “caught up” in the rapture.n If you are not, and you believe in God and his son but are still living your life the way the world does then you will not…end of story. Because remember folks, the devil believes in God&Jesus too!

  37. Alan Higgins says:

    I have not yet come to a conclusion but do not just dismiss it without watching the video. The scriptures are used in the correct context

  38. Julie says:

    You have to consider who is being spoken to in the Bible, the Jews or the Gentiles. God deals with each group separately. In Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to his disciples, who were Jewish, so that is how God is going to deal with the Jews and their unbelief. It will take the tribulation to cause the Jews to realize they crucified (who arose 3 days later) their Savior and that Jesus is indeed King. All of the scary events in Matthew 24 describe what the tribulation will be like. Paul was sent to minister to the Gentiles (the rest of the world). He reveals the “mystery” of the church age not known to the Jews before Paul came. Paul explains how the church is the bride of Christ and these last 2,000 plus years have been the church age. God will not put his bride through wrath and vexation. There’s a lot I’m trying to explain here, but bottom line is that keep in mind who the Bible is dealing with and it’s easier to understand prophecy and how beautifullly and masterfully the Bible fits together. Read http://www.lesfeldick.org/. He explains and backs up with scripture.

  39. Rapture says:

    This is a great site and loaded with excellent information. I myself believe in the pre-trib rapture, but as others have mentioned, I think it is important for us focus on always being ready.

    I hope you don’t mind if I share a website that offers a witnessing tool for those who will be left behind. Check it out at http://www.rapturedrive.com

    Thanks!

  40. David says:

    It says in revelation that the devil will be allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. If the saints are gone before the trib then who is this script talking about? It also says if anyone is to be slain by the sword then by the sword he must be slain, and if anyone is to go off into captivity then off to captivity he goes. Here is a call for the faith and endurance of the saints.

  41. David says:

    The rapture is pre-wrath not pre trib.

  42. Katydid says:

    This video… when it says that the rapture has come when Jesus appears……………………..not so. Jesus does NOT appear to anyone at the rapture, which happens BEFORE he sets his feet on the Mt. of Olives. The Rapture will be an event of here one second, gone the next. The Church, believers those that are dead and those still living will be “caught up in the air”, will meet him in the air first, sometime before the 7th trumpet. The opening of the 7th trumpet begins the tribulation and opens the 7 Bowls of judgement. The Church (Christians) are not mentioned after Chapter 4 in the Bible, reason? CHRISTIANS ARE NOT HERE!!! Those that remain will be non-believers. We, Christians, will have been raptured by this time. When the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit will also be removed from the earth at this time, allowing Satan to take over until Jesus sets his feet on the Mt. of Olives. Remember, Satan is allowed to do his business, because GOD allows it. God gave us all the ability to discern and choose and granted us free will. Disbelievers WILL endure the tribulation and God’s Wrath. However, there will be 144,000 of elect Jews that will be allowed to preach throughout the world during the tribulation allowing conversion and they will not be touched by Satan, at God’s hand. Those that do become believers and “endure to the end” will live in heaven with Christ. Christ has given us every opportunity to choose Him.

    The 30 minutes of silence? There are arguments as to what these is all about. So we shouldn’t read between the lines. But those who are silent in heaven at this time are the saints (raptured). Who knows at this point, the silence could be their realization of God’s wrath about to take place.

    One reviewer is correct. “No one knows the time”……however, the Bible DOES say “know the signs of His coming”.

    We are told to keep looking up!!!! And I will.

  43. David says:

    The bible is clear that we do not choose Christ. The scriptures say in Revelation 13:7 that anyone whose name was not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the fountation of the world will worship the image of the beast.
    We do not choose God, He chooses us.

  44. yasmine says:

    i personally think that like the bible says that the rapture will be so quick, like it could happen this very second, and it scares me so to know that my friedns that do not believe they need to be saved could be looking at me in heaven, in my mind saying, why didn’t you ever say anything to me? and that is what scares me the most, that’s y starting tommorrow my friend and i are giving a speech to the classroom about the rapture

  45. David says:

    Yasmine, the Gospel is not the rapture, the gospel is preaching the repentance of sin, and believing Jesus died on the cross so that wicked people like you and me can be justified before a Holy and righteous God. Tell that to your friends.

    If you truly are saved, then the last thing your friends will hear before they are cast into the lake of fire, is you and all of creation cheering and praising God because He rid Heaven and Earth of them.

    If you truly love your friends tell them the Gospel. Tell them how they have offended a holy God with their horrible sins and His Holy hatred remains upon them (His wrath). Tell them that even if they are good moral people they still deserve eternal punishment cuz the bible says our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. Tell them the only way to the Father is through trust in His only begotten Son who died on the cross for their sins, and the Father’s wrath fell on The Lamb instead of them. That God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who ever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

  46. Tony Garcia says:

    I’m a pre-trib. VOE.org Perry Stone’s website talks about the Jewish Harvesting season as a symbol why the Rapture will occur before the tribulation. Chk it out man! Like your site.

    In Yeshua’s Grip!

  47. David says:

    The book of revelation itself speaks of the rapture being after the tribulation, but before the bowl judgements of God. Just read it for yourself and it will show you.

  48. I watched this video twice. Frankly it’s bullcrap. It’s a dramatization of scripture-shooting actors under an alleged doctrine supposedly woven throughout the Bible. You people need to do your homework. Some credit must be given to this video for biblically disproving pre-trib rapture claims. Yet, the makers of this video still fall to a deception. Their spiritual knowledge is clouded.

    First, this so-called rapture-belief is a human invention based on speculation. Prior to the 1500s not one Catholic or Protestant scholar/minister was preaching anything remotely close to a “secret coming” or “secret snatching up”. Second, as the video illustrated its technique of using Jesus’ words to “discredit” a pre-trib claim—the same illustration can be used to debunk a post-trib rapture.

    Notice all the calamities and woes Jesus is mentioning prior to the introduction of the “great tribulation”. Next take notice of the calamities He is describing during the tribulation. Christ then mentions about the days being “shorten”. Immediately after this, He describes the cosmic disturbances that nearly ALL Bible scholars know directly precede His imminent returns. (Other verses support this also.) Now, right after the heavenly signs occur what did Jesus says happens—His return! Not a rapture—not a secret snatching up!

    People who believe in the rapture doctrine miss what the Scriptures actually say. Jesus never spoke about secretly gathering His flock into heaven before a tribulation. He never espoused a notion that any harvesting of souls would occur before His second coming. Men have though. They take supposed notions inspired by “familiar spirits” and the “prince of the air” and incorporate them into the scriptures. Other deceived men and women follow this flawed premise and continue teaching others the “traditions of men”.

  49. David says:

    The rapture and Jesus second coming are two totally different events. The bible says there is a great harvest of the earth (rapture) and after that the bowl jugdments are poured on the earth on all the ungodly, the saints are not here where are they? Who are the saints coming back with Christ at His second coming, it is those who were raptured, the dead in Christ first and also the ones who never tasted death. The bible must be read in context.
    Matthew 24 does talk about Christ’s second coming after the great tribulation, but He also says all the saints will be gathered from one end of heaven to the other, not earth but heaven. If it says all the saints it means all the saints who are in heaven cuz they were harvested after the great tribulation but before the bowl judgments. So at Christ’s second coming all the saints who were harvested (raptured) will be following Hin on white horses.

  50. Cathy says:

    I would like to know what everyone thinks of my situation. I am a believer and a first of the week believer. I am saved and I know that Jesus is my Saviour. I know that I need to serve Him and do my best to witness for Him. I am an alcolhic and I just can’t seem to shake this addiction. I have tried therapy and AA , nothing seems to work. I am so ashamed and I just feel I”m not worthy. I know that that is not so. Jesus forgives us for our sins and remembers them no more. As far as the east is to the west. I just can’t seem to forgive myself and figure out how to kick this thing. Anybody help?

  51. Alan Higgins says:

    Cathy, please see https://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/how-do-you-know-that-you-are-saved/

    Even though this is about a different addiction, hopefully, you can learn from some of the principles. https://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/the-master-bait-part-3-overcoming-masturbation/

    I am limited to what I can advise but what I would say is if you are serious then move the temptations out of your way. For example, do you have alcohol in your house?

    I hope this goes some way to helping. i will be praying for you

    PS. If you want to make any further comments, please add it to the fist link

  52. David says:

    Cathy, i would like to give you a few words of truth. Jesus said repent and believe for the kingdom of God is at hand. Really look and understand what the literal meaning of repent is.
    Second thing is that even though you are a believer, that is only a part of what is required for eternal life. You must be born again (John 3) unless one is born again he will not see the kingdom of Heaven. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, or regeneration must happen in your life for you to have eternal life.

    Cry out to the Father until He so regenerates your heart that you hate the sin you love, and you love the righteousness of God you hate.

    Please look up regeneration, baptism of the Holy Spirit, and born again to gain more of an understanding of what i am telling you.

    There is also a good sermon called regeneration and self denial by paul washer.
    I will pray for you, and be encouraged that if you are being convicted of your sin, God has started a work in you already.

  53. The Bride of Christ

    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee (from) the (hour (Greek, hora- season) of (temptation (Greek, peirasmos- adversity or tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    The prerequisite to receiving the promise in this scripture is to patiently keep His Word or put another way, to be a consistent doer of the Word, full of faith!

    There are many wonderful benefits to being the Bride, but the one that is mentioned in the scripture Revelation 3:10 certainly will be a welcome blessing.

    The word (From) in Greek is as “out of” (Greek word, ek) Strong’s Number: 1537 out of, away from.

    Saved Now, and From(out of) The Tribulation.

    2 Thessalonians 3:3
    But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and (keep you (from) evil. AMEN.

    Jesus Christ promises to keep us “from” or as the Greek word reads, “out of” the season of tribulation that is about to come upon the whole world to try all those that are left behind to dwell upon the earth.

    One can read more of this Message:
    http://bibleprophecy-rapture.blogspot.com/2008/09/bible-prophecy-rapture-of-his-bride.html

    King Jesus Christ of Nazareth is LORD…

  54. Big O says:

    Before you read a Bible you must believe in the Holy Spirit of God. Then read the Bible “please” you need the “Helper” or else your going to read the logos of the Bible and not understand nothing.

    If you want to know when the World will end ask the Holy Spirit of God, not your Friends or Pastor.

    Read All “Matthew” New Testament Read it with the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless,God Loves You

  55. Rev Berole says:

    If my observation is correct, I have talked to so many so-called Christians who don’t believe in the rapture, is because they are guilty before God. These people love the world, condone sin and cannot tolerate the reality of the rapture as it is too painful for them conceive the idea of being left behind. They believe the church will go through the tribulation, because they want to enjoy this world and don’t want to be prepared before the tribulation starts.
    If the church goes through the tribulatrion, it means there is no church as yet… According to this view, the church will only start from the moment people will be tested during the tribulation period.
    The rapture is for those who love God, who hate combat all sort of evil, such as crime (slaughter of innocent babies,), debaucherry, sexual immorality, adultery, law-breakers, disobedient to the Word of God and lovers of self. The true believer is the one who repented from his sin, received Christ in his heart and obey His commandments.
    The problem with this laodicean church is that this world is too comfortable for them. Jesus will spit them of His mouth. Hallelujah!

  56. Kimo says:

    I would really encourage you to look into the Jewish Feasts and their ancient traditions, after all it is unto them that the oracles of God were given (Romans 3:1). I recommend the feasts, because these were the appointed times during the year at which God Himself (YAHWEH) gave to Moses the ordinances on how to observe them. And amazingly enough Jesus Himself (YAHSHUA)

  57. Kimo says:

    Sorry, Jesus Himself (YAHSHUA) fulfilled the first four of the Jewish feasts at the END of His first coming. Passover (Death), Unleavened Bread (Burial), First Fruits (Resurrection) and Feast of Weeks (the day of Pentacost). Whats more amazing than just fulfilling the feasts, He did it on the exact days and times that the people of THAT GENERATION were observing them. This was no coincidence. This was the hand of the Living God showing the world at that time and our’s that Jesus is indeed the Promised One, and the Jews of that day should have known it. This is why when Jesus was on His way up to Jerusalem on the day we recognize as Palm Sunday He said, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation” Luke 19:41-44. Jesus says that they did not know (recognize) THE DAY and TIME of His coming. Because just hours after that He would fulfill the Passover Feast leading to the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Feast of Firstfruits and 50 days later the Feast of Weeks.

    Brothers and sisters I am not Jewish, I say this so that you dont think that I’m trying to push Judaism on you but rather I am a believer in Jesus (YAHSHUA). I dont use the term Christian because Christianity has been pulled in every different direction immaginable. Rather we should choose to follow The Way, The Truth and The Life… Jesus. We cannot fall into the same trap that the people in the days of His first coming fell, in that they did not know the Day and Time, which is what alot of Christians are pushing. I know that Jesus Himself said that, and at face value we are proned and conditioned to believe that we cannot know. This is why I recommeded that we also look at the Jewish Traditions, their wedding tradition to be precise.

    In those days, the Jewish wedding was unlike our weddings which could last up to a few hours. Their’s lasted up to traditionally 7 days. But what is amazing about their wedding is that there a few pre-requisits that have to occur before the actual wedding feast. First a dowry (monetary) was presented by the father of the groom to the father of the bride. “Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.” 1 Peter 1:18,19. Another pre-requisit was a letter of agreement or contract(promisary letter) that was presented. This is what the bible is and the promises of God to His people who choose Him through His Son Jesus Christ. But Jesus Himself promised His disciples (all) what He was about to do; read John 14:1-6. And lastly after the arrangements were made between the two fathers, the bride to be was given an opportunity to accept the marital terms, and the way she did that was by sharing from the cup of wine that the groom presented to her (communion). This is not by any means just communion that we take every 1st sunday of the month, but rather accepting His sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins on the cross. This is just the first part of the betrothal, they were promised to each other but their marriage was not complete. The groom would then go to his fathers house to prepare a room for him and his wife and what is called a bridal chamber (hupa). All the while only the father of the groom knows when the wedding would take place. In the meantime the bride would ready herself and would wait in anticipation for the calling of the groom which normally took place at night. She and her bridesmaids would have to be ready for the calling. When the father says it is time, then the herald would blow the trumpet (shofar) and the calling “The bridegroom is coming” is proclaimed, then the bride and her maids would have to make their way to the grooms place at where the groom would snatch her away and take her to the hupa where the two of them would become one (consumation). This is a private moment between the groom and the bride. The maids will have to be ready because when the groom and his bride go into the hupa the doors to the fathers house is shut and noone else can come to the ceremony. At the end of the consumation which could last usually 7 days the groom would then present his bride to the people. This is a picture of the wedding of the Messiah Jesus Christ to the church, His bride. He promised that “He would go to His Fathers house to prepare a place for us… and that He would come again to recieve us unto Himself” John 14:3.

    When Jesus made referance to “No one knows the day or the hour”, did He really mean that, or was He pointing us in a direction to follow. I know alot of Christians say “He meant what He said, and He said what He meant.” True, but His audiance, only His primary disciples, who were all Jews, would understand the picture of the Jewish wedding, that Jesus is trying to share with them, Matthew 24:36-25:13. Noah’s day, marrying and giving in marriage, and the parable of the 10 bridesmaids. This is known as the Olivet Discourse. Later during the last supper, Jesus tells them what we read in John 14:1-6 (reference to the wedding).

    I share this with you because God did not appoint us to His wrath. Now I know that alot of people take the sixth seal of Revelation 6 as being the time of the actual wratch of God and that is something to consider and that comes at the last hour of the Tribulation Period. This could very well be the hour that Jesus promised to the church in Philadelphia, we dont know for certain. But this I do know that no matter what, God the Father (YAHWEH) is an awesome God, and the only God at that.

    But before I close, I would like for us to look at “The Day”. Because if the Jewish people at the time of Jesus first coming should have known “That Day” (first coming), shouldnt the people of His second coming know “That Day” (second coming) as well. Jesus commands His disciples to be “watching”. Now I believe as do many others that if Jesus fulfilled the first 4 Jewish feasts on the days in which the people were observing them at their time, then prophetically speaking “HE WILL” fulfill the last 3 Jewish feasts on the same day that we will be celebrating them. The next of the Feasts is the Feast of Trumpets (the first day of the Jewish New Year).

    Amazingly, in the ancient days, they didnt have the technology that we have to calculate certain things, and the Jewish calender was one of them. The Jewish calender operates according to the moon and not the sun. This is why the new day for the Jews start at sun down, not midnight like ours. In order for the Jews to know when their new year started, they needed to know at what time the new moon appeared in the sky. This is the only time of the year when they would have to litterally whatch for the first appearance of the new moon in the sky, no other month of the year. Every new moon cycle, as the moon passes between the earth and the sun, the brightness of the sun tends to block out the moon to the naked eye. This passing could last from 2 and a half days to 3 and a half days. But during that time frame, no man knew what hour of the day it was. So at the appointed time of the year, the Jews would set 2 witnesses to watch for the appearing of the new moon. At the first sighting of the new moon which could only be seen during the evening time when the sun sets, then the 2 witnesses would blow the trumpets in a series of blasts. I cant go into detail about the series of the blasts, but when the last trumpet blast was blown, then the new year started. This is the Feast of Trumpets, the next of the Feasts yet to be fulfilled by Jesus. This time is also known as the gathering (rapture). Again, If Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts on their respected days at the end of His first coming, why would He not fulfill the last 3 feasts on their respected days at the beginning of His second coming? He cannot break this pattern, otherwise He could not be the Messiah. Therefore He has to fulfill them on these days because the Messiah will fulfill them as a confirmation to who He Is, Jesus Messiah (YAHSHUA HA MESHIAH). Even the actual day of return is prophesied, and Jerusalem is the key to that day. Read Daniel 9:24-27. This the timelines for His first and second comings. This is why Jesus said that the people should have known the Day and the Time. Because the next feast after the feast of trumpets is the Feast of Atonement (Day of Atonement). This is the day that the High Priest goes into the Holy of Holies (the presence of the LORD)for the atonement of the sins for the people. If the LORD has forgiven the sins of the people then the High Priest would come out of the Holy of Holies and the people would know that their sins were forgiven. Daniel 9:24 tells us what will happen at the end of the 70 weeks, this only happens on the Day of Atonement, which is the next feast after the feast of trumpets (rapture). Here is the key to knowing His second coming (not rapture). It starts when Israel recaptured Jerusalem on the day (June 7, 1967). The word weeks, is a reference to another Jewish observation, the sabbatical years and the year of Jubilee. One sabbatical was a 7 year period in which the people could work the land for 6 years and let the land rest for 1. Notice Daniels prophecy has a break of 7 and 62 weeks. After 7 sabbatical years the Jews would celebrate the year of Jubilee. This is when everything would be restored to its rightful owner and the slaves would be released. So if we take the 7 sabbatical years and break them down into biblical days of the year (7×7=49×360=17,640 days) and we move forward from June 7, 1967 17,640 days that brings us to the date of September 23, 2015 (the Jewish Feast Day of Atonement). That means that the rapture has to happen on one of the 2.5 to 3.5 days (Feast of Trumpets according to the Jewish calender) some time from now 2010 to 2015. So be sober and vigilent, and keep watching. There are many other awesome things to look at concerning the time in which we are living in, but for now… Be Warning, Be Ready and Be Watching.

    May the peace of God which passes all understanding keep and guide you even in these perilous times so that we do not fall asleep and be caught off guard. God Bless You in the Name of Jesus Christ (YAHSHUA HA MESHIAH).

  58. Henry says:

    To All,

    There are so many myriad views and theories as to when the rapture will take place. Strictly speaking we understand the rapture to be based on 1 Thess 4:13-18 when the resurrection of the dead and the saints who living will be caught up to meet Christ in the air.

    But if this is the first resurrection when does it take place, before the antichrist’s reign of terror or after? Indeed we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) but will we face the tribulation reign of the beast? Well look at Rev 20:4-5.

    Does it not say here that the first resurrection included those who were beheaded by the beast and who overcame it’s mark and image?

    Can you read this and still insist there will be a pre-tribulation rapture? If so please show me the scripture which says so! Thanks in advance.

  59. joshua says:

    The rapture will come and only God knows when, it’s just as foolish to simply buy into pre-trib, post trib,etc because you nor I really knows(nor were we meant to know), Only God knows, so we should continue loving our brothers and sisters as well as our neighbors as we spread the Gospel. Whether it kicks off now or ten years from now, at the beginning of the 7 years or at the end of them we should always be faithfully prepared to be strong in Christ and have faith that he is coming for US, even if that means you and I must suffer first as witnesses of our beautiful and mighty Lord at the hands of those who do not believe no matter who they are, antichrist or no. I don’t know when Christ will come back but I watch for the signs and look towards the heavens in anxious wait, happy to serve Him even if in doing so it brings me to my own death for in Him I and You have eternal life and if God stands with us NOBODY can stand against us. So live in the grace of God and do not fear for He is always with us. God bless, brothers and sisters, and may God bless all those you encounter in your walks that they may see and believe also.

  60. d v clark says:

    Hi Everybody,
    After reading most of the comments I have to agree with Joshua that this is indeed a controversial topic among us and that the first priority is to be prepared for when our Lord calls us or for the worst if indeed we are to be tested. God tells us to not be afraid of the first death. This may be hard to remember if someday we are all dragged off by the thugs of the antichrist. So, I hope the best for all of us as we prepare for the most profound and important event that will finally come to pass.
    God bless,
    Doug

  61. Ryan Magdalin says:

    Here’s how i see it friends. My parrents were, and still are, believers in the rapture. Frankly, they welcome it and can’t wait. I can recall many conversations at dinner where they spoke warmly of the day that the world would end. And though I do recall at first i thought it odd to want the world to end, by the time I was a solid 12 years old I too longed for the day. Now granted, like most and/or all of you who will read this, I was outcast at school, eventually home schooled (where I earned straight A’s I’ll have you all know), and ended up only hanging out with like minded people. Well as I grew into a young man I started wondering more and more about this rapture, the intentions of God, and what God really stands for. As I began to hear my parents words for what they meant rather than as Gospel (pun intended) I began to wonder why God would have such an intention. Soon I started realizing that when I began to look closer at everything I was taught about God and it was getting more and more clear. We don’t know anything. I wondered why I, you, anybody, should live their life completely in line with a book that a number of different men wrote about a man and place in time that each writer viewed through their own veil of personal experience. And then I got really furious with my parents. And I’m not gonna go off on all of this except to say this:

    God is what you want him to be. God is a way for us to feel like were connected to something. That’s it. Hold on to him, let him go, do whatever you need to do. But for those of you who live your lives bound to him out of fear (which is the point of me writing this, as the rapture is the personification of the fear that religion is built on) your missing out on a lot of great things in life. Give your kids a chance to enjoy their lives and let religion find them instead of doing your best to keep the rest of the world from finding them first. Ryan 2:24

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