This is one of the commandments of scripture. However, lately there have been people who call themselves Christians and have no desire to have regular fellowship with other believers, whether that be in an established church or otherwise. Christian fellowship is one of the signs of a true believer (1 John 1:7)

Taken from Got Questions (I have amended some as I do not believe that fellowship necessarily means ‘going to church’)

The Bible tells us we need have Christian fellowship so we can worship God with other believers and be taught His Word for our spiritual growth (Acts 2:42; Hebrews 10:25). Fellowship is the place where believers can love one another (1 John 4:12), encourage one another (Hebrews 3:13), “spur” one another (Hebrews 10:24), serve one another (Galatians 5:13), instruct one another (Romans 15:14), honor one another (Romans 12:10), and be kind and compassionate to one another (Ephesians 4:32).

When a person trusts Jesus Christ for salvation, he or she is made a member of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27). For a church body to function properly, all of its “body parts” need to be present (1 Corinthians 12:14-20). Likewise, a believer will never reach full spiritual maturity without the assistance and encouragement of other believers (1 Corinthians 12:21-26). For these reasons, church attendance/participation and/or fellowship should be regular aspects of a believer’s life. Weekly church attendance is in no sense “required” for believers, but someone who belongs to Christ should have a desire to worship God, receive His Word, and fellowship with other believers.

Let me make it clear. Going to church and and being around other believers doesn’t make you a Christian but if you are a true Christian, you will have a desire to be around other believers on a regular basis.

“Without the God-given habit of corporate worship and the God-given mandate of corporate accountability, we will not prove faithful over the long haul.” – Kevin DeYoung

Related Posts:

Are you ‘not in church’?

Reasons to leave and reasons not to leave your local church

Phillip Jenson asks Mark Dever – When is it ever right to leave a church?

  1. Hamman says:

    What is ‘church’? Does it mean a social gathering? A building? An event on Sunday? Once we are clear about this meaning, we can better understand what ‘going to church’ really means.

    • Alan Higgins says:

      The church is basically the called out ones i.e we are the church. You will notice from the Blog that my emphasis is more about regular fellowship with other believers as I do understand that in some contexts, going to church could mean imprisonment so meetings may need to be held in homes e.g China

  2. glasseyedave says:

    I used to believe like you. I used to look at those outside the church and think them kooks. But something happened. I started reading my bible and noticing that what I read was not what I was being taught.

    Maybe you should not be so big on attending church. Maybe you should be big on believers fellowishipping with believers who do not teach falses gospels.

    What is the qualifying number of believers to make a fellowhsip? That would be two or more. Because I choose to do the two or more and not go to fellowships with the blessings of the Federal Government called a 5013c, I am not following scripture according to you. I guess the more potential fellowhip I make available to myself the more I am obedient to Christ. Well let’s all leave the small churches and go to the mega-churches so we can be even more obedient to Christ.

    The church has the terrible record of statistically looking just like the rest of the world. Just as much divorce, pornography, greed etc. In fact 8 out of 10 youths in evangelical churches have “no idea” how their faith fits in with everyday life.

    But let me make you feel good and not teach my children myself (which is also a commandment) and go to church where we can learn to be like the world. Yeah!

    I do agree with you on one point. If the members of the body of Christ will not be what they are called by God to be and will not use the gifts that God has purposed for each one of us for the building up of the church, I can not be what I am to be in Christ. This is my tragedy! I can’t find believers who can defend their own faith, let alone understand it, yet I am to fellowship with them?

    But of course I am always considered the backsliden one.


    • Alan Higgins says:

      Have a look at my ‘about me’ section and trust me, I know all about these false gospels that are so rampant in so many churches. Just look at my false teachers in the category section…. but they are not all like that. It does not negate the fact that we should have regular fellowship. The Bible is clear that we should not forsake it.

      • glasseyedave says:

        I have found false gospel so prevelant in the church that I end up going back to home church. They do not want to hear the gospel. I believer more in an underground church now days than I ever did before. Even here in America.

  3. glasseyedave says:

    I see you have ‘Spirit of Discernment’ on your blog role. I have built a friendship with Henry and I believe I know where he stands on the false gospels of the church. I also see you have one called ‘Pulpit Pimps’ I like that name. So I am surprised, not knowing you, at your post.


  4. So, should we go to “Saddleback Church” and learn about Chrislam?? Sorry, but many churches are openly apostate. Others have surrendered to the 666 beast system and are 501c3 — and are part of BABYLON. The pastors are giving information to the Government, are part of the system that is telling Christians to go to concentration FEMA camps and “obey the Government”. They have “outreaches” where they are giving people vaccines. They’ve become the “arm” of the 666 beast New World Order. The institutional church is a MESS!!

    Furthermore, the church doesn’t receive apostles and prophets who would awaken them to the times and take a real position against Satan in this age and hour. Going to one of these gathering places under the control of Satan would be like attending a synagogue of Satan where true Christianity is opposed.

    So, many of us have “left” the institutional church until they themselves repent before God. We “gather” in different venues.

    • glasseyedave says:

      “Furthermore, the church doesn’t receive apostles and prophets who would awaken them to the times and take a real position against Satan in this age and hour.”


      The “church” is ready to turn against the believer. The great apostacy has already started and soon to be full fledged in a church near you.


      • Amen. The fact is, the 666 BEAST SYSTEM is formed by the flesh, the sinful nature and manifests in the Governments of man. When the KINGDOM of Jesus Christ comes in fullness, all offices in the body cease. The “institutional church” is glorifying human government rather than Jesus Christ in it’s hierarchy. That’s why the endtime saints are leaving in droves. The great falling away is happening so that the “human government church” — the “institutional church” is being swallowed more and more whole by the 666 beast Babylon system.

        Leave Babylon!! is the cry of the Spirit. We the saints who have left — have heard the cry to leave the institutional human government church — the same church that rejects apostles, prophets, and seeks to bring believers under the 666 beast system from it’s 501c3 status and WORSE.

        God bless.

        • glasseyedave says:

          I have a friend that speaks like you. We used to go round and around. This is back in the day when I thought Rick Warren walked on water. I remember the day I called him and told him I had left Babylon.

          Now I have hope that others will follow.


          • JR says:

            It seems that you guys are opposed to the “structured” church, am I correct? So how does one reconcile those feelings with Ephesians 4 where we see that God gave leaders to His Bride to shepherd His people? Or 1st Peter 5 where he addresses the elders (read pastors/bishops/shepherds)? Or how is one to submit to their elders (Hebrews 13) without some form of structure. I above many believe that there is an ungodly abuse of many so called “men of God” in many buildings wearing the label “church” today, but that cannot supplant the reality that God has ordained a structure to His Body. We see Paul address the Ephesian elders (pastors) in Acts 20:28 where he states that God is the One who appointed them as leaders of the congregation. I totally agreed & support the fact that there are many ungodly examples in the mainstream “church” today, but that still shouldn’t lead us to abandon God’s structure for His people. I know how we may feel, but shouldn’t we bow to His wisdom and find a godly church that adheres and does things His way?

            • Alan Higgins says:

              I have to agree with JR. I know about Rick Warrens doctrine and yes it is a bit off. You may have come from a church which spiritually abuses you in one way or another or who has bad doctrine (as I have done) but don’t throw away the baby with the bath water. There are good churches out there and it may take some time to find one but do keep searching. Please also look at my links at the bottom of the post

  5. So, true. Thanks for sharing, Alan!

  6. glasseyedave says:

    Is the church just a little bit in error in some of its application of scripture, but for the most part healthy? Is the church mostly doing good, even though it has some faults? Should we continue the mantra of apathy and lack of accountability by saying, there is no perfect church.

    Do we realize that if the early church held our modern view we would not have many letters we now enjoy in our New Testament? Many of the letters deal with the imperfections in the church. When these letters address sin in the church, other gospels, fights, quarrels and those who push themselves out to be in front, their authors believed differently than we do today.

    They didn’t just say, “Oh well there is still some good being done in the church.” Then leave it at that, as if that is an excuse to live and let live. Do we not have the eyes to see the spiritual battle to keep the imperfect church pure and on task when we read our scriptures? How is it we have lost this call to arms today. What we only think we put on the armor of God for our wee little personal struggles? Do we belong to the army of God so we can excuse spiritual imperfections and perfect defection?

    In the natural do we want to go the restaurant that has been shut down by the health inspector because of fly, maggots, rodents and open sores and dirty hands? Would it become ok if I made the point that people still get fed there? No it doesn’t!

    How about the physician who is in court for many a malpractice suit? Is it acceptable to encourage people to go to him for care? Would it become ok if I made the point that people are getting the care they need to become whole there? No it does not!

    Truly scripture is true of us believers.

    “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.[1]

    We will never put up with in the natural what we excuse in the spiritual. We are more shrewd with the things of this world then the things that matter for eternity. If the master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness, how much do you think He will commend us the people of the light, who lack all shrewdness for the kingdom of light?

    We will fight for our kids, we will fight for our wives and husbands, we will fight for our freedoms and liberties, but we play kick the can with the devil when it comes to fighting for what is really important in the church.

    And in all this we seek God. In all this we ask for His Holy Spirit and His power. We walk around scratching our heads, asking why He has not given Himself to us like He has the early church. Hint, the early church was shrewd enough to write letters to the, no church is perfect crowd, and never let them forget who it was they served and needed to obey. We can’t even get past what the dishonest manager was commended for, and we want Him to trust us with His Holy Spirit? If we will not do the difficult, what in the world do we need the Holy Spirit for? If we will not fight for God’s word, our plumb line, on the home front, what right do we have to ask for the Holy Spirit to fight in foreign wars? Are we now going to cry out to God we have a burning desire to save the lost, only to bring them to what we will not defend. And we think we do not grieve the Holy Spirit while we cry out for more of him. Hypocrites us all!


    • Alan Higgins says:

      You seem to assume that we are saying that we just turn a blind eye to the bad stuff that happens in SOME of our churches. I am not saying that at all and if you look at my blog, you will see that I have spoken up about some of the foolishness. But that still does not in anyway justify that we neglected fellowship. That is like saying that no one has any desired to follow the bibles way of doing church and that simply is not the case. Also remember that the snares will grow with the wheat and God will do the separating in the end. As I said do not throw away the baby with the bath water. There is no perfect church out there and it will probably not tick all of our personal theology points but as long as the primary doctrines are preached like christ centered preaching, the gospel, repentance from sin and faith towards God, then that is a very good start

      • glasseyedave says:

        I was talking with a long time friend and we were discussing those people who have read and understand too much of scripture to be content with what church offers for the average believer. My friend made the comment that many believers who find themselves frustrated end up being dissatisfiedly involved in their local church, figuring it is better to do something than nothing at all.

        Should believers exchange the gifts of the Holy Spirit in church for participation in some ministry? Should believers be forced to forsake the office of Prophet and Apostle for the office of the Pastor only? Should we be forced to accept commentaries and well planned humor in place of the power of God in our services? The list goes on and on as to what frustrates the believer who reads His word, when one looks at their church in the light of scripture.

        So what of it? Is it better for the believer who is frustrated with their church to continue to participate in their church, even though the practices and in some cases the preaching doesn’t really reflect what we find in God’s word? If it doesn’t line up with God’s word, isn’t it really idolatry that we now practice, in the name of “It’s better than doing nothing”.

        I know of a man who kept the worship, kept the sacrifices, kept the priesthood, and even made it more accessible to those seeking. But he offered spiritual death in all of this. He offered idolatry.

        Jeroboam thought to himself, “The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.” After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. And this thing became a sin; the people went even as far as Dan to worship the one there. Jeroboam built shrines on high places and appointed priests from all sorts of people, even though they were not Levites.[1]

        Should Israel have participated in such worship? Absolutely not! It was a sin. But what do we as believers do that is any different than what these men of Israel did? Do we participate in something the Holy Spirit has been wrestling with us about? If we have come to understand the gospel we put our hope in differently than what is taught and done in the church, what credit is it of ours if we participate any longer? Why do we think the Holy Spirit wrestled with us in the first place? So we can console ourselves with, “at least we are doing something”. With that attitude go join the idolatry of Israel. They at least were doing something, at least we are not forsaking the fellowhsip.

        I can hear Jeroboam’s priest already, “Forsake not the fellowship.” Fellowship with what, light and darkness, God’s word with man’s wisdom?

        Remember we will be judge by the word of God, not by the word or opinion of man.

        “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.[2]

        So go ahead and think it ok to be a bench warmer for the church as long as we don’t forsake the fellowship. After all it is better than doing nothing, right?

        Why do you assume the Holy Spirit has not been wrestling with us over these issues as if we only have an authority problem.

        If we do not stick up for the word of God, how can we say we are not ashamed of God before men?


        • Alan Higgins says:

          Who said anything about being a bench warmer? That aside, you have come with all your arguments so let’s get back to the main thing. What do you suggest is the best environment for a christian to grow or is it best that they be a lone christian?

          • glasseyedave says:

            Of course I don’t think being alone is the best invironment for Christians, the Bible teaches that. My point the church is so watered down in it’s understanding of scripture I feel I would be compromising my family to have it sit under it.

            Secondly, just because these men who are called pastors claim authority doesn’t mean they have it. Christ is our head, not some pastor with a piece of paper on the wall. All I see in church is the pastor controlling all the other offices of the church and the gifts of the church. I thought all were supposed to be there.

            Do you think it healthy for the church to not have the other offices and gifts of the church functioning in them?

            I can read in scripture where other people are supposed to speak in a meeting of believers but can you find one that speaks of a pastor doing so?

            • Alan Higgins says:

              And this is my point. You say that the church is watered down in its understanding of scripture. You are assuming all churches are like that and that simply not the case. I have been to a church which fits your bill where scripture was twisted, there was a lot of emotionalism, and it was unhealthily controlled by one man at the top who was almost deified. So I know EXACTLY the kind of church that you are talking about but I left and now attend a very healthy church which interprets scripture correctly and instruction context. There ARE good churches out there so again I say, do not throw out the baby with the bath water because you may have had a bad experience

    • Eric says:

      Amen brother!!! Speak!!!!!!! Keep speaking the truth but keep in mind some (or most unfortunately) ppl heartsand minds are harden to the truth b/c of their brazen ignorance and disobdience (Matthew 13:14-15)

  7. Henry says:

    Alan and Glasseyedave,

    I have been following this discourse with interest. Alan you have spoken Biblical truth when you say we should not forsake the fellowship – this indeed is scriptural. It is through fellowship that the church is edified and brought into the full knowledge of Christ. Eph 4 says:

    11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

    Glasseyedave I fully understand your position and your diilemma however but I do not think that Alan was implying that the church should stay imperfect and that we should be satisfied with fellowshipping in an imperfect church. I understand the point you are making that we cannot attain to what Eph 4 is saying if all the gifts and offices do not take pride of place in our churches. As Alan is implying however, Christ is building His church and as a result there are churches out there that seek to hold to the scriptures. The challenge for us though in an age of apostacy is finding them. Your’s and Alan’s point are therefore well taken and are valid but need not be opposing.

    God bless.

    • glasseyedave says:

      For me, I see the true church at the beginning of the underground stage here in America, maybe the world as a whole. When Pastors who have the umph to preach the word of God get throw in jail in Canada and Europe things are changing for the real man of God. The church as a whole will not resist being watered down in order to get along.

      In Washington state where I live they are making it so Pastors have to wed gays. If they do not they get in serious trouble. My answer is to not be a 5013c and move the church underground and make wedlock between a man and a woman in front of God with witnesses. Not with the government blessing.

      If we really preach the offending word of God (I’m not talking about fire and brimstone) we will loose most of those who attend their comfortable churches. But those who remain will have more of what we read in scripture.

      The church has gone underground before and will do it again. What if I am a little on the cutting edge?

      Besides I can not find in scripture the form of church structure we have today. If you want to discus this we can.


  8. Emille says:

    I am sorry to say, but you got it all backwards. In this day and age, the true Christians are actually SEPARATING themselves from these organizations called ‘churches’. The level of apostasy in most churches has now reached to such a level, that staying in these churches is almost equivalent to conscientiously turning against God. I am telling you: At this point, Gods Church has already gone into ‘the wilderness’. It is scattered among the most unlikely kind of people. The verses you quote are not at all a call to attend the so-called ‘churches’ of this world, but rather speak of our gathering together to Jesus Christ. Which is happening in Spirit and in Truth and not through any organization build by human hands. The truth that most churches are completely ignorant of, is that God is drawing countless of souls to Him OUTSIDE of these so-called Christian churches. Through the Holy Spirit, these people are warned NOT to have any part of this so-called christianity. They know full well what these churches are really all about. We are being called OUT of that kind of spiritual harlotry. Not into it. You had better wake up and grasp what is taking place right before your very eyes. As the world plunges into deeper apostasy still, the churches will play an increasingly prevalent role in deceiving the masses into accepting a ritualistic false religion and eventually abandon Christs teachings completely. Many will be deceived as many already are. In the end, it will be these gathering of goats, these so called ‘christians’ that will persecute and even kill the true believers. As they have done so before. They will think to do God a favor by persecuting and eradicating them. This is the tragic fate of those who put their trust in man-made churches and the man-made philosophy called religion instead of God: They will become the enemies of God and persecutors of the saints and by doing so damn their souls to destruction. Because of their rejection of Gods truth, He will send them strong delusion so that they will believe a lie and act accordingly. There is still time to repent and believe. Separate yourself from these false institutions and ask Gods for His guidance and wisdom in understanding the Scriptures. He calls whom He wills. If any man has an ear: let him hear!

  9. Nikao says:

    Church is the “ekklesia”. When 2 or more come together in His Name. The church was never meant to become what it is. Messiah is the head, not a pastor. You can learn His word in a small group, and not have truth dictated to you. 501c3 is not the only issue. How about “clergy response teams”. To help the government ‘quell dissent’. Pastors paid by the gov. to teach their congregations to obey the government. The number of pastors is in the 10,000’s. I don’t believe this is what God intended of His church leaders.

    In my experience, the church is still mainly on the milk and has never moved onto solid food. Questions outside the norm are not tolerated. The Spirit is not allowed to teach. Only Pastors and Elders.

    I do believe in gatherings of believers to edify and serve one another. To seek God and to help each other in their walk. For prayer and for accountability.

    Am I required to attend, If I don’t believe the doctrine that is being taught, just because the government recognizes it as a ‘church’? Why do I have to recognize a pastor as having some spiritual authority, just because he has been indoctrinated at a seminary? If I have friends that come together to worship God, and seek His truth, are we forsaking the ‘church’? Am I being faithful?

    Instead of an article on how we need to go to church, I would like to see an article on ‘Following where the Spirit leads.’ If I believe God has called me from such an institution, which I do, Would I then be faithful if I didn’t?

    Blessings to all those who seek the truth, hear His call, and seek Him with all their heart.

    • Daryl says:

      Hi Guy’s I stumbled across your discussion on church while trying to prepare a sermon for a little church I go to and I think a little extra scripture is needed in this debate instead of just hurt opinions.

      I am not a pastor but I am a leader in my local church which is not perfect but we are working towards it.

      Glasseyedave if your church is not following scripture then YOU do something about it. Yes you can take the easy road and run away to where ‘I won’t get hurt again’, Or you could use some of the gifts you have obviously been given to better the church. We need all of the Body to help prepare the church for Jesus’ return. The church needs to be awakened I agree but I don’t think giving up is the way to go.

      Remember the parable of the talents Matt 25:14. Comes just after the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. Matt 25:1-13.

      We must be ready for His return. Keeping oil in our lamp and our lamp trimmed, but knowing He is a ‘hard man’ we should not take what He has given us and hide it ‘underground’.

      We ‘plant ourselves’ or ‘place ourselves’ under the ‘leadership’ of a local church not because they are better or know more than us but because it’s God’s plan for us. We need every ministry in the church and that includes yours.

      Our churches get out off balance because we are missing the eye’s or the heart or the hands.

      Fellowship helps us stay on track and not get lost.

      I have titled my sermon being a ‘Fat Christian’ because sometimes I feel that way.

      I have feed on great sermons and teaching for years, teaching me wonderful life truths and God’s love but I find myself ineffective and I don’t see alot of fruit yet. This frustrates me.

      If I have it all together then why have I not seen the revival that should have been.

      I still have a few rough edges and I need to be pruned sometimes. I allow God to use the ministry in the church to keep me on track. I know many people who have walked away and they struggle greatly with their faith and get lead astray down some silly paths. Some have returned praise God but we are still believing for others.

      The local church, although not prefect, helps me stay grounded and focused. Helps me trim my lamp and I think sometimes I trim some other peoples lamp to.

      God needs us all and that’s why he has given us all the gifts and talents he has.

      We are in a fight but it is not with each other. The world will know us by our love for each other. We are all valuable. Actually indispensable.

      Get involved with a local church. Place yourselves in an environment where you feel a little uncomfortable and let God do his work in you. We all need His touch.


      • Eric says:


        Quite simply the Bible tells us too leave, so you are clearly not well-versed on what you speak on. There are several pertinent scriptures I can leave with you but I’ll just leave this one.

        Galatians 1: 7-9.

        “Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
        But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
        As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

        Those who really want to do right by Christ will, those who don’t won’t. And no amount of words or what have you can change that. It’s simple

        So study the Word and stop taking these “sermons” (mixed with the doctrine of man) as absolute truth.

        God Bless.

  10. Daryl says:

    Hi Eric,

    I don’t believe for a second that God tells you to leave church (fellowship with other believers). Defiantly leave false doctrines and leave a church if you feel God is leading you to another but don’t leave church to go underground. The church needs people like yourself to stand up and be counted. To use your gifts for the better of the church not take them away.

    You need to provide a better scripture for your argument because Galatians 1:7-9 talks about them being accursed not you.

    Matt 10:14 talks about when Jesus sent out the Apostles and told them Who ever will not receive you nor hear your words shake off the dust from your feet and let them be. I believe God will deal with them and us as He see’s fit. Let them see the light God has given us and let God show the way through us. We could also learn a thing or two along the way ourselves.

    Are you an apostle sent out by God? Are you better then them? In all this Jesus did not tell them to take their faith underground. They were the leaders of the church at that time not just an average church member, and if people did not listen to what God was saying through them then they, The leaders were to depart and go to another place but they are still the Apostles, not on their own. Still leaders in the church

    The fight is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual powers in high places so what needs to happen is someone needs to stand up against the enemy. If you recognize the enemy’s attack then do something about it. Maybe you are the answer. Maybe you have the answer. But we should not run from the fight. God has given us the victory.

    Be the blessing God has made you to be,

  11. Eric says:


    There are so many ways I can approach this, I don’t know where to begin …..

    1. No one ever advocated against fellowship with fellow genuine believers sir. However, we must fellowship with His people in a manner in which God told us to and that is not PATRONIZING AND ATTENDING these mundane institutional churches. 99.9999% of these instutional churches are not what God wants for His people and those of us who study to show our Bible as commanded (2 Tim: 2:15) we see that, those who don’t will perish because of a lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6). Not to mention, you be hard pressed to find true believers at these churches anyway b/c they would have recognized that the “union” isn’t right early on.

    2. WE, THE BELIEVERS (people united together under Christ), ARE THE CHURCH, those of us who accept God’s Word as the inerrant truth and ultimate authority (who don’t pervert the gospel or add to it) and who is saved based on fulfilling the requirements my Father beautifully gave to us in scripture. So we can’t leave us Daryl, and what you’re refusing to realize is that we are actually helping the church and using our gifts as you suggested we do … we’re using our knowledge, encouragment, fearlessness, discernment and ability to communicate etc to help those babes in Christ or those who are under a great delusion (2 Thess. 2:11) but deep in their hearts still know the institutional churches they attend is hurting them and simply have them unequally yoked (to half-truth, lies, financial/emotional distortation, etc). We’re helping them find the straight and narrow that leads to eternal life by basically speaking the truth out loud and encouragement, b/c these institutional churches (that you apparently love so much) are nothing more than major fleshly manifestations mixed with a little “God” and God detests it all and so should we!

    1 Corinthians 10:31-33 : So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved … So Daryl, how can we make the church of God stumble if it’s a buildiing as you emphasized several times.

    3. There are many obvious faults and contradictions in your augment. You are clearly under a great delusion of half-truths and lies and I pray you get out. Meditate on this message, I’m not trying to hurt you but help you Daryl. So please rebuke that combative spirit in the Name of Jesus and recognize what’s being said here for YOUR SAKE, YOU ARE NOT DOING ME A FAVOR B/C IT’S NOT ABOUT ME. IT’S ABOUT JESUS CHRIST.

    I admonish you with the Love of Christ, wake up and not be ashamed of the Gospel.

    -Eric J. Franklin

  12. Eric says:

    **Those of us who study our Bible that is***

  13. Eric says:

    And please excuse all typos, busy at work multi-tasking but it’s easy to grasp the message.

    • Daryl says:

      I am going to answer you using your scriptures one by one so as to try and keep up with the conversation as it takes place.

      You could start with the truth. It is not a question of whether the church you go to teaches good, bad or indifferent it is about going to church. The Bible clearly says you should and yet there are some out there that believe everything in the Bible except that truth. If you don’t go to church you are on the edge of missing out on Heaven. Jesus went to church, He kept all the laws. But sadly some people consider themselves better than He and would try to persuade you to follow them underground. For me I’ll chose the example of Jesus to follow. Jesus saw the corruption in the Church of the day but instead of going underground with faith he openly opposed it while still following all the rules of the law of the day.

      99.9999% of these churches will say if you don’t want to come to this church go to another but don’t walk away from God and don’t spend to much time in the wilderness on your own because you need fellowship to be a complete Christian and people around you who can help in your faith journey. Help keep you on track and not get too lost down a silly path.

      (2 Tim: 2:15)
      You better read the verse again and get it in the right context. In verse 20 he goes on to say that in a great house there are not only vessels of great honor but also some for dishonor. Do you get it, they are in the same house! If you keep reading the word goes further to say a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition….. that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil having been captive by him to do his will. Then the bible goes further to say in verse 3 that those who do not escape the devils hold on their lives become so ungodly that they would even creep into peoples houses to take them captive. ….8 so do these also resist the truth: Men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith.
      How do people who are going astray get bought back into right relationship?
      We read from your quoted verse and keep reading so we keep it in context, that people, in the church, teach them, Correct them.
      The people out side the church creep into the church peoples homes and try to ensnare them.
      We also see from your example that these men of corrupt minds have been disapproved concerning the faith.
      By who were they disapproved by I ask? Those outside of the house or those inside the house. Obviously it’s the people inside the house who have found these men straying from the truth and when they have tried to say to them that they were wrong, these men could not or would not admit they were wrong and decide to take their faith UNDERGROUND, out of the church where nobody can tell them they are wrong. Church leadership is there for our protection and growth not for our demise.

      (Hosea 4:6).
      Is this not a word for us all? Be careful not to reject knowledge because God may reject you.

      Most of the lack of knowledge is because people have decided to take the knowledge that God has given them and go underground with it because it is easier to run away than stay and fight. Most of you are running away from Gods plan because you have come up against some leader in the church who has told them they were not correct in some way or another and instead of submitting to Gods plan for our lives and placing yourselves in a place where you can be held accountable, Pruned and produce good fruit for the kingdom you run away to where you are always right and no one can tell you otherwise. Foolish is what I call you, but I’ll do my part where ever I can and pray that God will deal with us in time. We will go through some hard times until we submit to Gods will but if that’s the way you want to go, well, so be it. I shake off the dust, you’re in Gods hands. Bless you.

      From what you have written here there is clearly some sort of perversion or adding taking place!

      Are you the ones inside or outside the church? As above.

      (2 Thess. 2:11)
      Keep reading. The delusional are outside the church. The brethren beloved by the Lord are in the church. (Verse 13)

      So your saying you are helping the church by not being apart of it and taking the gifts and talents God has given you and hiding them in the underground where there is no accountability. Where what you feel in God to be right is right and no-one can tell you any different. Wake up and smell the stuff your saying!

      All I can say is hogwash.
      1 Corinthians 10:31-33 :
      So Daryl, how can we make the church of God stumble if it’s a building as you emphasized several times.

      I have never said or implied or emphasized church is a building. Another example please!

      The context of these verses talks about Christian liberty and how we should not offend people or cause them to stumble with the way we do things. I suggest to you that someone outside the church might do this more than someone inside the church because they have not got the grounding of a body of believers to keep them on the straight and narrow.

      The next chapter of 1 Corinthians then goes on to talk about head coverings, Who, besides you, is above you? Where do you get your direction and correction from? Who is able to guide you and if needed tell you, you are wrong? That’s what church is about. If you don’t like it now than Heaven is going to be a real nightmare for you!
      You wrote:-
      3. There are many obvious faults and contradictions in your augment. You are clearly under a great delusion of half-truths and lies and I pray you get out. Meditate on this message, I’m not trying to hurt you but help you Daryl. So please rebuke that combative spirit in the Name of Jesus and recognize what’s being said here for YOUR SAKE, YOU ARE NOT DOING ME A FAVOR B/C IT’S NOT ABOUT ME. IT’S ABOUT JESUS CHRIST.

      Back at you. There are many obvious faults and contradictions in your augment. You are clearly under a great delusion of half-truths and lies and I pray you get out.

      You cannot hurt me with utter rubbish and I feel sorry for you in your delusions. Have another look at what I have written. Have another look at the scriptures and wake up to the foolishness you and in.

      You wrote:-
      I admonish you with the Love of Christ, wake up and not be ashamed of the Gospel.

      I am quite the opposite of ashamed of the Gospel. I would like to think I am a champion of it. With a little more help from God and my church family I am sure I can be

      Find another church to fellowship in. You can belong and I know there will be a church for you.
      I am sorry to everyone that this is long winded but I think people need to know. I will try not to write so much next time.
      God Bless.

      • Eric says:

        Hi Daryl,

        You exude such a powerful SELF-RIGHTEOUS/PHARISEE SPIRIT (both of which God hates and I feel sorry for you, those are not the fruits of the spirit Galatians 5), not only that but you are blatantly under a great delusion as I initially discerned.

        Sir, if you don’t question everything you now consider to be true and finally accept the true Lord and Savior into your life, damnation is where you will spend eternity. The Jesus Christ you think you praising and you think you accepted is not the one of the Holy Bible, it’s a flesh-inspired idol/false Jesus. I’m sorry I’m not going to sugar coat at the expense of your soul and you being set free nor am I suppose too … WAKE UP WHILE THERE’S TIME AND GET OUT OF THIS BONDAGE OF LIES YOU’RE CURRENTLY IN.

        There’s nothing more to be said on the matter right now, you are DEMONICALLY refusing to accept or even at the very least entertain any truth and you’re perveting the Gospel and taking the doctrine of man/flesh as gospel truth.

        Good luck and again I hope for your sake that you find out who Jesus Christ really is and what He wants for His people. Praying for you.

        ***In closing, People do not listen to Daryl, but listen to the Gospel Truth. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to the truth as you make observations/comparisons and study His Living Word, his Word is Alive! The Holy Spirit will never steer you wrong, but your emotions and man will.****

        • Eric says:

          And Daryl,

          This is my last message and I’m done, the Truth will always prevail and is everlasting, there’s really no arguing with it. But you grossly misinterpeted what I said and distorted my message, so please go back and objectively read what I was saying.

          And what do you mean underground, as if we are some runaway slaves ….. No, not one of us are “underground”, we walk, ministry, operate, and live on the same grounds you do. So let it go man.

          And finally you got it all twisted and you sound conflicted and very unlearned, I just wanted to make that clear in my final serious heart-felt admonishment on this matter.

          Thanks for your time.

          • Daryl says:

            Hi Eric,

            I am sorry you are so sore but all I have done is used the scripture’s you said show your point of view and shone a light on them to reveal what is truly said.

            They are not my scriptures or my words but yours.

            The thing is the bible is correct in everything it says but man can take this bit and put it with that bit and try to make it sound correct but that’s not what we should do. When we look at a passage of scripture we need to understand what is being said and that means read a little before and a little after as well so we get the full context of what is being said. Perhaps get a second or third opinion no the matter. That’s all I have done with you and I am now the bad guy in your eyes because I have pointed out where you have been mistaken.

            This has been a good journey which my church is enjoying and it has opened a lot of questions by many in my church. Some positive feedback for you I hope. These questions should be openly discussed to make sure God’s will will come from it.

            You are right in one thing, you did not say underground yourself but you were agreeing with glasseyedave who says the church is going underground and Emille who says the church is now out in the wilderness.

            And again you have not answered any of the questions I put to you where I have tried to answer your questions of me.

            You have said of me that I exude such a powerful SELF-RIGHTEOUS/PHARISEE SPIRIT. That I am blatantly under a great delusion as you initially discerned. that if I don’t stop damnation is where I will spend eternity. That I am PATRONIZING AND ATTENDING these mundane institutional churches. Imply that I am not a true believer. That I have perverted the gospel or added to it. That I am refusing to realize You are actually “helping” the church. That I have emphasized several times the church of God is a building. That I have many obvious faults and contradictions in my augment. That I am taking these “sermons” (mixed with the doctrine of man) as absolute truth. That I am clearly not well-versed on what I speak on, and that I should wake up and not be ashamed of the Gospel.

            I hope that you have seen that none of what you have said about me is correct and that I have backed up my faith with scripture, word and deed.

            If you don’t like what I am saying I am sorry but we all need to be accountable and I know from experience that I’m not always right and I can tell you I have had some pruning in my lifetime probably just like all of us and none of it was pleasant at the time but hopefully, and I believe I have, learn’t and grown.

            I still stand by my belief that you we are all vitally important to God and to his household and that we should all be going to church. You don’t have to go to my church but GO TO CHURCH.


  14. Hi Daryl,

    I have been kinda skimming your’s and Eric’s back and forth conversation and noticed you mentioned me. I would like to reinstate why I do not go to church.

    First of all am I one of those few Christian men who actually teach my family the gospel. I actually do what we are commanded to do. Fathers teach your children. I think that you would agree that this is a good thing. You probably are troubled by my non-church attendance an not by me teaching my family.

    By the way, I have great joy in teaching my family the gospel. We as a family have gone through the book of Genesis, Romans, Hebrews and the book of Galatians. My children know more about the gospel and major doctrines than most Christian adults.

    Now to my main point.

    I find that most churches are so shallow in their teaching of God’s Word. I have attended church recently (within the last two years) for almost a year. I was frustrated with their shallow doctrine and wishy washy doctrine.

    Now my son goes to a youth group, which I attend since he is there, and again, the teaching is so shallow. It really frustrates me that the church is always being fed what I would consider less that milk.

    Another problem I have is the overwhelming use of newer versions. If anyone does a study on the newer versions and how they change the gospel, it will shock them. But even more than that, the two men from whom all new modern version come from are not believers! They adhere to the ideas of the New Age belief systems. I find some of their quotes absolutely shocking, stuff from their own mouths.

    I also can not stand how the gospel has been swallowed up by so called Christian Psychology, by such topics that help a person be a better person.

    I have a conviction about the gospel. It is universal in its application, meaning it works for us and the Muslim woman who has no rights and is ¼ of a person and has to share here husband with two other women. Soooo… such teachings as the prosperity gospel do not work for her and by reason alone can not be the gospel, because it is not universal in its application. Not to mention it goes against the teaching of the gospel.

    Secondly the gospel is unique. When churches preach about how to be a better person from the Christian Psychology gospel, I find the Mormon, JW’s, Muslim, Buddhist etc. can say amen to it. The gospel I preach to my family is one where the Spirit sent from Heaven by a Savior who has ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God is what changes us and sets us free from the bondage of sin.

    Many places no longer talk of sin anymore or the need to repent to a Holy God. Instead we get invitations to get to know Jesus, ask Jesus into our hearts and the like. Always with the twist of having a better life, not repenting from sin as a sinner. Who needs a savior if you are never a sinner? Jesus said this gospel of repentance is to preached to all the world. That is if your newer version hasn’t taken it out yet.

    I do not think any of these reasons are without merit. Not to mention not seeing the church members actually fulfill their roles as members of God’s house and Christ body. Meaning God gives gifts to everyone as He determines so the body might grow into maturity in all things. What we have now is pastor, youth pastor, worship leader and the person who gives the announcements. All things go through the pastor and it has to fit him before it can fit the Holy Spirit and what ever gift God may have given the church. This system has made a whole bunch of fat Christians who never get to do anything by the Spirit but a lot of stuff through the Church programs.


    • Alan Higgins says:

      David, I TOTALLY agree with your comments above and that is one of the reasons I started this blog because of my frustration with what was considered Christianity in most churches and what had become the norm. I came out of that deception so I know first hand but please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There ARE some good churches and pastors out there. They may not tick all of our personal theological boxes but on the essentials, they are solid. God designed us to live in community and fellowship with one another so that we can help and learn from one another.

      • EJ says:

        Hi Alan,

        I might be finished with Daryl, but I couldn’t resist the urge to attempt to enlighten you on ….
        ” They may not tick all of our personal theological boxes but on the essentials, they are solid.”

        Why do you think it’s OK to play with your spiritual life like that? Think about it, in the natural would you go to the barber who is only gonna kind of give you the cut you need OR will you go to the one who will cut you up exceptionally well like you’re suppose to be cut? You will undoubtly go to the one who will do it all the way right and not kind of. Our spiritual life is way more important than the natural life and something we should never trivialize.

        This “no church is perfect” mantra is a trick by the devil to keep ppl in bondage to living unhealthy, unfulfilling, and fake spiritual lives with too much emotion and little substance. I used to say the same thing, I suffered as a result and it stunted my growth and I lacked God’s presence in my life. I prayed it will get better but it continually got worse (I visited many institutional churches, same story). I finally got the courage to say enough and trusted what God was showing/telling me and came out from among them. Please wake up spiritually, i cant emphasized that enough …. it’s powerful.

        • Alan Higgins says:

          EJ, if you know of a perfect church, it will become imperfect as soon as you step in there. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. I might have a personal view on the tithing. This doctrine is not essential to my salvation. But there are some doctrines which are essential such as Christ being the only way. Are you truly saying that if a church teaches proportional giving but a person personally believes in tithing, that that should stop him from going to that church even though it is bang on in the essentials?

          • Eric/EJ says:

            Alan Higgins,

            I will disregard and forgive that unwarranted insult in your opening sentence, but it gives me more clarity as to the type of spirits I’m battling with here so I’m more spiritually equipped on how to proceed with ministering to you.

            Being a member of the institutional church your going to Alan Is keeping you in BONDAGE to COMPROMISE and that is setting you up for failure on so many levels like you probably won’t believe (I will cry just thinking about it). So do you think God is pleased with you being in harmony with an organization (“church”) that don’t acknowlege His word as the ultimate authority and take EVERYTHING HE SAYS seriously? Do you think God is pleased when you patronize an organization (“church”) that isn’t partial to all truths? B/c if the Holy Spirit (also known as the Spirit of Truth) actually dwelled or led most people there, they definitely would not be only covering the “essentials” as you put it, but they’ll be rightly dividing all God’s Word and covering everything as commanded which is essential according to God.

            Remember God’s way is not our way and we are supposed to be aligned with God’s way and rebuke man’s silly way of thinking. So I’m not going to even ask what you consider the “essentials” because it doesn’t matter, the devil put that lie in your head to keep you bondage and right now your running with it. Again, every word in the Bible on how we should live is essential/serious and if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be in the Living Word, it’s simple.


            I admonish you in love and that Jesus Christ, my King, get all the Glory!

            -Eric J. Franklin

            • Daryl says:


              Pride comes before a fall. Nobody is perfect yet bar one. Jesus. We are all still trying to attain perfection but we are soo glad for the grace of Jesus.


            • Alan Higgins says:

              Eric forgive me if you was offended by my comment. It was not intended. And I am not saying that my church or myself does not search for the truth in Scripture. What I AM saying is no one is perfect. We are ALL fallen beings so if you (or i) stepped in a ‘perfect’ church, it would become imperfect. We should always be striving for perfection in everything and that includes church but NEWSFLASH… It will never happen this side of heaven. So there will always be differences on certain non essential doctrines (meaning it doesn’t affect our salvation). There was disagreements in Scripture on doctrines in church as well. Please show me a perfect church in action on earth in the Bible. And this very thread is proof. I don’t agree with everything that you are saying. Does that make me or yourself heathens or are we just two brothers who disagree but our common thread is our love for Christ and that we have been saved by him and him alone through his atoning death?

              • EJ says:

                In Closing ….

                Alan, you’re not disagreeing with me, you’re disagreeing with God’s Way and His Word. EVERYTHING I’M SAYING COMES FROM SCRIPTURE EXCLUSIVELY. It’s not my opinion, it’s sound doctrine that is grossly overlooked and swept under the rug (we perish b/c of a lack of knowledge) …. I have Scripture and Context to back up everything I’m saying so I just want to make that clear.

                But even with that said, if you don’t make up in your mind and heart that you want to do right by Him and Him alone, you will continue to be in the dark on these things. Too many people out here are just man pleasers, these institutional churches groom people to be man pleasers (bragging about their church/ministries/giving etc) and man exalters (boasting about pastors/elders etc) JUST LIKE THE PHARISEES and we are told not to do that or condone it. We are to be a pecuiliar people (1 Peter 2:9).

                You’re welcome to believe the truth or not but just know this, again this “no church is perfect” or “no one is perfect” doctrine comes from the PITS OF HELL. It perverts the Gospel and eliminates any type of accountabliilty and standards God told us to have through the Holy Bible.

                And since you believe this “no one is perfect” or “no church is perfect” philosophy so whole heartedly

                1) Why are you not advocating against prisons?
                2) Why is there people and places you like to avoid?
                3) Why are there some businesses you won’t patronize even though you can afford it?
                4) Why not attend or tell ppl to go to a Mormon church (they talk about Jesus)?
                5) Why not attend or tell ppl to go to a Roman Catholic church (they talk about Jesus)?
                6) Why not attend or tell ppl to go to a Jehovah Witness church (they talk about Jesus)?
                etc ….

                And for the last 3 questions you can say well they don’t cover the “essentials” but YOU JUST SAID NO CHURCH NOR IS ANYONE PERFECT so with that said they are good to go to and be in fellowship with …………… meditate on that.

                Have a good one sir!

                • EJ says:

                  And last but not least …..

                  Why you even bother trying to correct or admonish people? … Hey no one’s perfect right, everybody is trying to do right.

                  Please Stop Please ……. The Devil will not have Power over God’s Children and I rebuke Him every chance I get in the Name of Jesus. He’s a lie!!!

                • Daryl says:


                  You are very good at putting other peoples faith down and very quick to judge but still base your arguments on part truths. You are still taking a verse and trying using it out of context to try and back up your arguments. You need to have a look at what is being said to you and read the scripture in its context to get it’s full meaning. We would like to think there would be some common ground we could share.

                  If that’s not the case then what’s the grace of God for?

                  You said,”I have Scripture and Context to back up everything I’m saying so I just want to make that clear.”

                  Could you enlighten us as to where in the bible it says that we find a perfect church or where in the bible we find perfect people?

                  I look forward to your response.


                  • Daryl,

                    Just some things to think about. First of all the church is full of tares. This means that they are not going to part of the harvest. They will be plucked up and burned. So, when one comes to the defense of the church, one must remember to separate their defense of the wheat from the tares.

                    This might help in the discussion. I think it is noble that you want to defend the Bride, but others would at least like the recognition of the tares in the church.

                    It is important to understand the grace of God will not be given to tares. So we can not speak of God’s grace as if it is for all the imperfect people who seem to take the faith lightly.

                    We all know that Jesus has made a distinction between the wide and narrow path. I don’t think we will find any disagreement between ourselves if I say scripture teaches those on the wide path want nothing to do with God. They are in rebellion against God and are all going to hell.

                    The narrow path are those who obviously are not on the wide path… duh huh. Meaning they are ones who are looking to enter into the narrow gate. Contrary to the world, not all religious paths lead to God. There is one path, one way, which is through Christ. Of this path which leads to the narrow gate we are warned to stay on that path and not veer to the left or to the right.

                    Many, many people in church believe all who are on the narrow path are going through the narrow gate simply because they are not traveling down the wide path. This is a popular church doctrine. It may surprise many, but Jesus does not agree with the churches understanding of those on the narrow path.

                    Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

                    Can we agree that the church is full of tares and not everyone on the narrow path, not everyone, or as Jesus says, many will not make in who are seeking to get in.

                    Now that is a sobering thought!

                    What we wrestle with is those tares who speak and do in the church in all manner of offices in the church and something just doesn’t smell right in Denmark for the coal mine canary Christian. If you get my meaning.

                    If you wish, I can also speak scripturally of perfect people.


                    • Daryl says:

                      Hi David,

                      You seem to be backing up my statements with your scriptures so I find it so frustrating that some people can not see in scripture what I see.

                      I said,”I agree that there is no perfect church out there because they are made with people.” and you quoted the bible Matt 13:24-30 about the parable of the wheat and the tares.

                      This says to me that the church has corrupt people in it. People actually the work of the enemy and not God. Funny what the parable continues to say is leave them along with the rest because they will be pulled up and burnt at the time of Harvest. Hey they are all still in the church until harvest and guess what? we know they are there. Surprise! The church is not perfect but don’t leave.

                      I disagree about God’s grace as we were all on our way to hell before God’s grace. This means until the harvest we can be grafted back into the vine. But I do agree there is a cut off time. The time of harvest so until then I want to follow God with all my heart.

                      The rest about the wide and narrow gate backs up what I said at the start about the wise and foolish virgins and then the parable of the talents. Guess what?, They are in the church, Think they are going to Heaven but when the time comes they will find themselves lacking in some way. They miss out on Heaven I agree but again, they are in the church.

                      You wrote,”Can we agree that the church is full of tares and not everyone on the narrow path, not everyone, or as Jesus says, many will not make in who are seeking to get in.

                      Yes I can agree with that statement but can you agree that they are in church with the wheat as well?

                      That’s what this blog is about, Should I go to church? I believe we should. Another interesting thought here is the wheat and the tares are in the same field.

                      I would love you to speak scripturally of perfect people.


                  • EJ says:

                    “Could you enlighten us as to where in the bible it says that we find a perfect church or where in the bible we find perfect people?”

                    Alan, I answered that question several ways and times (as well as so many others on this blog). But you didn’t answer any of my questions.

                    Your most recent post confirms to me this conversation is over and you WANT to continue to walk in darkness. Ignorance is bliss and I’m not gonna play into your game.

                    Good Luck and God Bless.

                    • EJ says:

                      I meant Daryl. I already wash my hands with you. You proved that you rebuke and abhor any types of truth, so right now there’s nothing more for us to talk about.

      • glasseyedave says:


        I can understand how many people would have a generally good feeling about most churches in America. It is in our nature to feel good about an organization we belong to. Yes, there is some wheat to be found in amongst the tares in a church. But I would challenge you on your thinking. The best way is to peruse my blog about the faith. It is

        You commented, “God designed us to live in community and fellowship with one another so that we can help and learn from one another.” which I whole heartedly agree with. This is a frustration for me. Who to fellowship with as we are instructed to in scripture. Try reading my post called triage for starters to see where I and many people are coming from.

        I am not this way to just be standoffish to the church or to place myself in a superior position. To me it is a matter of being The Church or pretending.

        I look forward to your comment on my post Triage.


    • Daryl says:


      I agree that there is no perfect church out there because they are made with people. I think what you are doing teaching your family like you are is fantastic and some of the families in my church are going to see a good example of what a father should be like when I show them this. We need more fathers like you in the church.

      I was and still am a little frustrated with my church because of its shallow teaching of God’s Word especially on Sundays so I approached the leadership including the pastor and was told they were not against it but at present they were waiting on God for someone to organize / run another small group which would get deeper into His word. I guess that might be me.

      They also said that our small groups we have in our church was the place to really get into the word because you can be more relational with in a small group than at our main Sunday services. I get what they are saying and although I don’t totally agree with all of it yet I am allowing God to work on me in it. It defiantly can’t hurt me to try.

      I also agree with Alan.

      Well done and thank you Alan for this blog. It has stirred my faith.


      • glasseyedave says:


        I can not express to you my feelings of sorrow to hear how some feel we need to wait for someone to organize a small group meeting. Honestly, it almost brings me to tears to read this.

        Why, does the church need to wait for someone to step up, when this is what we are supposed to be anyway?

        Scripture clearly teaches that we individual believers are the ones who are supposed to build each other up and equip each other with the spiritual gifts God has given us. This is about who we are, not just what we do.

        Thank you for your kind words about me teaching my family.

        If you want a challenge, maybe, just maybe, go to my blog and see if it what you are looking for. It is a taste of what I teach my family. Or better yet, listen to some of the radio programs on there under the radio tab, and let me know if this is what you are looking for. I can guarantee you will not hear what I say from a pulpit. Listen to at least five radio programs to get a feel.

        Let me know if this helps to feed you spiritually.


        • Daryl says:

          Hi David,

          I suppose I should elaborate a little more on the church I attend. We only have about 40 – 50 regulars at the moment but working on that and in a small country town so there is at the moment more work than people to do the work. Its not that the leadership does not want to go deeper into the things of God it’s just where we are, at this time. We have currently 3 small groups going but for the most part only new Christians in them so we are working on building our relationships with God which will eventually lead to more in depth stuff but for a while we are at ground level.

          On some level I have to disagree a little with you in that (we individual believers are the ones who are supposed to build each other up and equip each other with the spiritual gifts God has given us.) because the job of the five fold ministry is the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry. Yes that’s people in leadership teaching us how to do things & then we go and do.

          I have not read your blogs yet but I will have a look.

          I still think we need people like you in church.


    • kahlil says:

      Hi David, I agree with everything u said concerning why u don’t go to church right now. I’m not going to church for the same reasons u pointed out except for your reason about bible translations. I c nothing wrong with using other versions as long it’s not the JW’s. If u can prove modern versions of the bible takes the gospel out please show me because I was converted to the gospel using a modern version of the bible. I assume u believe the KJV is the only version that’s right because the only people I see who make this claim that modern versions of the bible are corrupt r people who only use the KJV. In the end, it has nothing to do with translations. Any version of the bible can be used to teach false doctrines.

      • glasseyedave says:


        I agree with you, any version can be used to teach false doctrines. I think this is a lot about what this post is about. Struggling with a so so gospel or going for broke in what we read the church is supposed to be.

        Many people like me, read their bibles and get all excited about what they just read, and like me, look up from the pages… realizing… “Oh yeah, we do that differently”.

        I used to be a really big NIV person. I discovered the gospel I defend on my blog by reading the NIV. I personally found that the KJB is much more consistent with the presentation of the gospel. This is why I became a KJB guy.

        Concerning other translations. I first came into contact with The Message as a youth pastor on a YWAM trip. The Message was passed out to everyone. I had heard had it made the bible come alive. So what do I do. I somehow flipped to the scripture where Jesus talks about the offending hand or eye and to cut it off or out so you do not end up in hell. The Message made hell a moral trash heap. Sin and hell are not one of the themes of the translation. Why need a savior? Why ask anyone to repent?

        As far as the others I would suggest you do a study by reading one or two books. They are well documented. And can better challenge you if that is what you are looking for. They are not making a mountain out of mole hill in these two books. You will eventually lay the book down on your lap to consider the evidences. It will change you.

        The first book is: (I would start with this one)

        New Age Bible Versions
        By G.A. Riplinger

        The second one is:

        One Book One Authority
        By Dr. Douglas D. Stauffer

        He really helps to explain how the church has morphed into what it is today. Which is exactly what this post is about.

        Please pay close attention to the changes, but really pay close attention to the quotes from those behind the newer versions. They are not believers!


        • Kahlil says:

          Hey Dave, I totally agree with u on paraphrase bibles like the message. I have heard both sides on the issue about manuscripts but in the end the gospel is preserved in modern translations. I’m pretty sure the same convictions u have concerning the gospel is the same as mine. Doctrines like the Trinity, the Deity of Jesus, salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone r all taught in modern versions. The last time I checked, paraphrase bibles were made for children. They were not meant to b used for deep study or to b used for preaching and teaching adults or teens. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not here to debate u on which version is better or convince u to stop reading the KJV. My concern is when people judge someone’s salvation or lack of knowledge of the bible because they use modern translations.

          • Kahlil,

            Please forgive me if I came across as judging someone’s salvation because they do not read the KJB. As I said, the gospel I defend I first came to understand while reading the NIV.

            For me and my house, I teach my children out of the literal translation that is found in the KJB. Not some paraphrased bible. I want my children to get the best spiritual food. This is my opinion.

            I do believe that you have a love for the Word of God like many or myself when I was all NIV. But, if you read those books it will more than raise your eyebrows about an agenda to weaken the church through modern translations. As I said before, the two guys mostly responsible for all modern versions are not believers.

            Don’t take my word for it. Read there own words in those two books.

            Keep up the good study and defense of the Word.


  15. Alan Higgins says:

    OK, everyone, I have decided to close the comments on this post. The tone from certain contributors have been unacceptable and as a result, I do not think it is profitable for this discussion to carry on in the way that it is. Thank you to those who have disagreed with a spirit of grace